Emily Ladau:
Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau:
And you’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian:
What are we going to talk about today Emily?

Emily Ladau:
I feel it’s high time for us to talk about nasty people online and also just the general feeling of being a disabled person in the world and feeling you’re never getting through to people when you have to justify your existence over and over.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That is so relatable.

Emily Ladau:
Deep breath, everyone. We’re going to talk about some frustrating comments.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Literally comments, am I right?

Emily Ladau:
Yes.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Awesome.

Emily Ladau:
So I’ve been a very online person for a while. So I am definitely used to assorted random human beings, questioning my existence and questioning my perspectives on my existence. But lately I have been more vocal on a couple of platforms that I wasn’t particularly vocal on previously, both on Facebook page and my Instagram, and I’ve always been vocal on Twitter. But I’ve now been getting hit from three different places with people who take issue with the things that I say about disability and somehow turn it against me and just create all kinds of unnecessary drama and nonsense. And it’s kind of tiring to have to tell people the same thing over and over again.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Would you say that these people are trolls, people who are just saying contrary and stuff to get a rise out of you, or do you think that these people have what they consider to be a legitimate grievance about what you have to say?

Emily Ladau:
I think it’s that they consider themselves to have legitimate grievances. I actually don’t think I get trolled very often. I think that I get a lot of non-disabled people who take wild amounts of offense to being asked to check their non-disabled privilege.

Kyle Khachadurian:
What’s next? You’re going to ask them to check their white privilege too?

Emily Ladau:
Oh, no. I mean, I did have a literal Karen who decided that she was going to come for me. And I had posted something on Facebook about how the existence disabled people is not tragic, but the real tragedy is that people think that our lives are tragic. And so this woman shared her experience of how people treat her condescendingly. But the way that she said it was that people treat her like she has a brain injury.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Okay.

Emily Ladau:
And a mom of a kid who has down syndrome commented and was, “Okay, how do you treat people with a brain injury?” And she was trying to prove the point that that’s a really uncool way of saying that someone’s being patronizing to you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Right.

Emily Ladau:
Because you shouldn’t be pitting two disabilities against one another. So I stepped in to try to clarify what the mom of the kid with down syndrome was saying. And literal Karen was so mad, even though her original comment was all about how she wished that people would be more sensitive and respectful in their language, the second I was like, “Hey, maybe you should also be more sensitive and respectful in your language. Your experiences are valid, but let’s think about how you talk about those experiences.” She lost her mind and one of our last interactions was, “Shame on you.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
How dare you ask me to look inside myself?

Emily Ladau:
Introspection. So that wasn’t really directed at me, but it was just one of those moments where I realized that probably no amount of advocacy is going to change some people’s minds.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Does that frustrate you? Because for me, and I’ve said this before, I advocate mostly because I have to, because when you’re disabled, you don’t really have a choice in the matter of whether or not you do or don’t. But I’m not in the sphere as much as you are, except for this podcast. So it must get exhausting to do that.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I mean, I’m the one hand as a professional disabled person, it’s literally my career. I literally wrote a book to educate people about disability.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And don’t ever stop saying that.

Emily Ladau:
And I feel weird saying that. Can we just sit in the weirdness for a sec? All right, I sat in it. I always said. Anyway, point being, I spent 24/7 educating people about disability and then when I go to bed at night, it’s not like I take my wheelchair off my butt and I’m not disabled, it never goes away.

Kyle Khachadurian:
At least now if you get one of those people, you can just redirect them to Amazon and be, “If you want my full list of opinions about disability, please buy my book and make sure you use my referral code so that I can double dip.”

Emily Ladau:
Is that a thing people can do? That’s hilarious.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Get on that Emily. Get on that. Get you get an extra 20% over the cost of your book.

Emily Ladau:
Well, I also was going to try to direct people as much as possible to support their local bookstore or buy from IndieBound or Bookshop.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, look at you being responsible. It’s funny, I actually don’t buy books off of Amazon, I buy literally everything except books on Amazon. That is a true fact about me.

Emily Ladau:
I think, did you pre-order mine on Amazon though?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yes. But that’s because you sent me the link and I had to be the first one.

Emily Ladau:
I know. This is not an accusatory thing. Guys, Kyle was my very first pre-order, I told no one else just Kyle. And he’s quoted in the book too.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh my God that’s true. I forgot about that. I’m going to frame that.

Emily Ladau:
I’ll print it out for you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’m going to frame the whole thing.

Emily Ladau:
I’ll print it out for you. I’ll blow it up nice and big.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Thank you.

Emily Ladau:
You know I love you. So anyway, wow. We got super off topic. So what were we talking about?

Kyle Khachadurian:
But the point is, even though this is your life, even though you should be the person that loves this kind of thing, that despite this being your professional career, and despite you being a professional disabled person, this still gets on your last nerve.

Emily Ladau:
I mean, it’s tiring after a while and I really don’t want people to think that I’m trying to alienate them here or that I’m trying to discourage them from engaging in dialogue. But there are clearly people who just actually don’t care what you have to say and just want to hear themselves talk and just want to be right.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I feel you’d find that in a lot of social justice leaning circles where somebody starts off as seeming to be in good faith or whatever and then they’ll say something like that. And it’s not even that bad, it’s just something that warrants you saying, “Hey, think about why this might be the wrong way to say what you want to say.” And then they just flip out. It’s like, were your intentions ever good? I don’t understand. Because that to me, that would embarrass me. I would not get angry. I mean, I might if it was like completely out of my field, but if I did something wrong in a space that I was starting to feel comfortable in, I would sooner feel very embarrassed.

Emily Ladau:
I think you make such a good point. And it reminds me of another comment because I feel I honestly have a story for every situation at this point.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Let’s hear them. Let’s hear it.

Emily Ladau:
So there was, and you and I talked about this off the podcast, but somebody posted something about how the phrase, nothing about us without us is actually exclusionary to non-disabled allies.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Of course it is.

Emily Ladau:
And I commented, “Hi, let me tell you why this is wrong.” And I gave them a very nuanced response. And they were also talking specifically about the fact that nothing about us without us is exclusionary to people who are non-verbal or people with cognitive disabilities. And I was like, that is directly counter to what nothing about us without us is supposed to be about. And I understand your frustration because they’re definitely disabled people who are very holier than though. And I noticed a lot of physically disabled people who were like, “Oh, I’m not like them,” in reference to people with cognitive disabilities. I hate that because that’s really uncool. Stop perpetuating a hierarchy of disability and get off your high horse.

Emily Ladau:
So I agree that that exclusion happens. But I tried to point out that the way that this woman was framing it, because she’s was the sibling of a non-speaking person I believe, or someone at least who had a cognitive disability and she was claiming that he couldn’t be involved in advocating for himself. And so she was very mad and I tried to respond, I hear you and your thoughts are valid and you’re right that physically disabled people exclude cognitively disabled people all the time. But also let’s not pick on a phrase like nothing about us without us.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You can’t get any more inclusive than that.

Emily Ladau:
Big [inaudible 00:10:49].

Kyle Khachadurian:
And that’s frustrating because, that’s frustrating, right? Because caregivers, parents, siblings, whatever sort of relationship you have to that person with a disability in your life if you are not that person, those people are invaluable to a lot of disabled people first of all. And secondly, they have a place it’s just not that one. They don’t live under the umbrella of nothing about us without us, even if they’re the reason that this disabled person, this hypothetical tale person can participate in that, in using that phrase. It’s disability adjacent, and that’s totally valid, it is. And I think too, you’ll never hear me stick up for parents as much as I’m about to right now. But I think too, the greater disability community as a whole tends to be at odds with parents and siblings and caregivers, and almost always it’s for good reason, and it’s because of stuff like that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But I do think they have a place and I don’t really think it’s that far away. And because of that, I also don’t think it’s that hard to not step in where you don’t belong, it’s really easy. There are parts of social justice where the lines get blurry depending on certain intersections, but I really don’t think that’s one of them. And I might just be saying that because I am disabled, so for me it’s kind of obvious, but that person just… I don’t get it. That really confused me. And even talking about it too with you now is still very confusing.

Emily Ladau:
And I feel maybe I didn’t explain it well enough to the people who are listening. But suffice it to say that it was one of those posts on social media where I probably should have known better than to engage, because I think that the person was so incredibly set in their viewpoint, that whatever I was going to say just wasn’t going to register. And so I probably need to learn to pick my battles, which I know is an episode that we did a while ago, but the logic rings true. And also, I really liked what you said about being disability adjacent because if you are the mom of a disabled person and you’re not disabled, then you’re not a disabled person. You are the mom of the disabled person so your experience is disability adjacent, but you, yourself are not disabled you don’t have that lived experience, you do not embody disability.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No. But at the same time you know a lot about it by virtue of your son or daughter or whatever.

Emily Ladau:
Right, absolutely. But that doesn’t mean that you need to be loud and wrong over everyone else.

Kyle Khachadurian:
If you’re going to be loud, at least make sure you’re right. And don’t speak over actual disabled people really.

Emily Ladau:
And I’m not here to try to perpetuate the whole parents and caregivers and siblings against disabled people thing, because I don’t like that and I absolutely think that there’s a place for everyone in the movement. So I think it’s also really important for me to point out that I’ve gotten pushback from other disabled people. I posted the story again, I was mentioning the whole thing about I’m not a tragedy, the tragedy is that people think my life is a tragedy. And the story behind that is that I was getting my hair cut and a woman who was at the next think over was, “Why are you in a wheelchair?” And I was like, “Oh, I have Larsen syndrome. It’s a genetic joint muscle disorder.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
You said that? You didn’t say born this way? Oh, good for you, you actually tried.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I did. I was a little caught off guard, but I actually tried. But then my hairdresser was, oh yeah. And her mom has it too. And then she was, “Oh, and Emily’s been on Sesame Street. And she traveled all over the place. And I dunno how she does it because if I was her, I would just lay in bed and cry all day.” And I was just like, well-intentioned, but still made me feel you think that disability is a tragedy. It didn’t make me feel better.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And also wholly privacy, right? And also who is your hairdresser to tell that person that your mom is also [inaudible 00:15:18]? And I mean, I’m sure, I know that part isn’t really a big deal, but just because you and I are hyper aware of the lack of privacy among the sale people, I get that. I’m not saying that part isn’t the problem, but that just set off alarm bells in my head because we’re aware of that type of thing.

Emily Ladau:
For sure. The whole interaction just felt really awkward to me. And I was frustrated because even if it was well-meaning, it was supposed to be a compliment, oh, she does so much despite her disability, but it just made me feel she thinks that disability is such a tragedy and I’ve overcome a tragedy. And so I tweeted about it and posted on Facebook and posted on Instagram because I was trying to make a point about it. And someone else who’s also disabled was, “You’re reading too much into this. You just want to pick a fight or have a platform or whatever.” And I was, “No, you’re being really reductive. Thanks so much.” And then she was, “Oh, you think using big words makes you sound smarter. You’re just being an inauthentic person on a high horse and you just want to fame. And I see you clearly now I’m going to unfollow you.” And I was like, “Bye.”

Emily Ladau:
But so I just wanted to bring this up because it’s not just non-disabled people, it’s also disabled people. And when they don’t agree with you, they go hard and it’s exhausting, it goes right back to being exhausting because you’re just going around in circles arguing.

Kyle Khachadurian:
The social link. I mean, I don’t want to make this the defend Emily hour, but I’m going to. It’s looking too much into disability is literary your job.

Emily Ladau:
Let me just interrupt, you just say that you don’t need to defend me, it’s not even that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, I know that. But it’s that is what you do.

Emily Ladau:
This woman on Twitter was like, “You’re literally reading too much into her words. You’re a writer you should know better.” And I was like, and sometimes being a writer means looking beyond the words to think about the impact. It’s not just about the intent. It’s about the impact, writing 101. Anyway, my gosh, I think this has just become me venting about things on social media, but there is a broader point here. So bring me back to it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
The broader point is that this happens all the time, all the time. You can’t go in a room, I mean, I don’t want to speak for you, but it’s hard for you to be able to just roll into a room and do something so mundane, anything without somebody, somewhere making a deal about it. And sometimes it’s fine. Sometimes it’s innocuous enough, but other times it’s man, I just want to buy my sandwich and go home. I don’t need to explain my life.

Emily Ladau:
Exactly, exactly. I just want my sandwich.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And the best part is, and I haven’t experienced this in 100 years due to those state of the world, but sometimes when we used to go out together or if I’m with someone who is way more obviously disabled than me, people will ask me about you.

Emily Ladau:
Yep. Love it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
“Oh, well, now that she’s gone, you can tell me all about it.” It’s like, no.

Emily Ladau:
Somebody who my college roommate went on a date with he asked her if she feeds me.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Did she say play along?

Emily Ladau:
That relationship that didn’t go anywhere.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Okay.

Emily Ladau:
No. I mean, I’m sure at some point in our four years of living together, she fed me, but only to be funny. And also if you do…

Kyle Khachadurian:
I can see her messing with a guy like that though.

Emily Ladau:
If you do need feeding, first of all, there’s nothing wrong with that. And second of all, that’s really not anyone’s business if you need that particular type of caregiving.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You just unlocked a really deep memories. So in high school, we were on a senior trip to the city because we went to special ed that was to the city. And we went to this place where they served frozen yogurt or ice cream or something. And one of my friends couldn’t feed himself. So he asked me to help him but not before the person at the counter asked me if I’d ever seen my friend before. And because we walked into the store together, I was like, “No, I’ve never seen him in my life.” I was being funny, right? But then the next thing that this worker saw was me feeding him. Imagine being told you don’t know this person and then they ask you to help them and then you do it. So either she thought I was kidding, because I was a little teenage person, or she was, “Oh, what a kindhearted man? He is helping this disabled stranger.” And to this day, I don’t know what it is, but I don’t know, something about what you just said just really just made me relive that.

Emily Ladau:
These stories happen all the time though, they go viral. A person at a fast food restaurant helps someone with a disability cut their meal and feeds them. And it’s the most heartwarming viral story you’ve ever seen, which I know we’re going off on a tangent here, but that annoys me so much.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No. But I mean, it’s annoying because yes, it’s nice, but it’s only nice because one else is going to do it, right? And then also it’s the filming of it too. And it’s you’re not helping, you’re doing a good deed, but remember everyone has to eat. It’s an essential function, it’s not like it’s, I don’t know. It’s so bizarre and that happens all the time.

Emily Ladau:
Okay. Actually, this does lead me to a way to get back to our point, which is I am trying to argue with people so many times about how incredibly rude it is to film a video of a fast food worker feeding someone Qdoba. I specifically remember I wrote an article about this. There was a guy at Qdoba and one of the workers there fed him and it went viral. And I tried commenting on it about how it’s actually no longer a random act of kindness when you suddenly turned into the spectacle for everyone to see and filmed it. And people came after me, “Oh, you’re the bitter cripple. How dare you say that?” And I think being a disabled person online basically means that you’re going to argue with people who are just going to double down because they do not want to be told that they need to pop their ableism bubble.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And that’s even if they know what it is. It’s so bizarre. It really is because a lot of these times, and this is strictly a thought exercise, but if you just replaced to say with insert minority group here, a lot of the time, in fact, I might even go as far to say all of the time, your story, your good deed, your whatever, it sounds completely ridiculous. And I don’t think anyone would disagree that it would sound ridiculous. And yet when it’s us, it’s not ridiculous it’s kind, it’s all ridiculous it’s cute.

Emily Ladau:
And not to mention then people who are otherwise progressive or believe that they hold progressive values somehow managed to still treat disabled people like me, as a worldly outcasts. It’s really amazing actually.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’ve had it sort of happen where, I’m sure you’ve had this too. Your well-to-do progressive friends over-correct.

Emily Ladau:
Yes.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Where it’s, “Oh, I’m so sorry. If there’s anything you need at all, I will literally bend over backwards and curl to the ends of the earth.” Chill out, I just need you to listen to what I’m saying.

Emily Ladau:
For sure. I was going to ask you, because your disability is definitely less visible or obvious than mine, do you feel you’ve had similar encounters in public where you’ve just had to explain yourself to people?

Kyle Khachadurian:
No.

Emily Ladau:
Not really, no?

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’ve had to explain other disabled people I’m with.

Emily Ladau:
Fascinating. What’s that like?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, okay, so sometimes I remark that people here in Seattle are very nice and Courtney will tell me very pointedly that no one’s nice. They just think I’m nice because I’m helping her and they’re acting nice to me because they think I’m doing something nice.

Emily Ladau:
Well, isn’t Seattle nice also a thing and the Seattle freeze?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Sure. That’s definitely a thing. But the amount of people who, or maybe it isn’t, maybe it’s just because I’m a jaded New Yorker and I’m just not used to people saying hi and nodding when I make eye contact with them. But the amount of times that I haven’t been asked about her yet, but I’m sure, I guarantee you it’ll happen sometimes at some point.

Emily Ladau:
Well, I mean, you moved in the middle of a pandemic, give it some time.

Kyle Khachadurian:
When there’s more people in places it will happen.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, for sure.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But I’ve been out with more disabled, obviously disabled friends and it’s happened sparingly in my life where it’s, “What happened to him? What happened to her?” It’s like, “I don’t know. Why don’t you ask them? Why are you whispering? They’re right there. They’re not deaf. You heard us talking.”

Emily Ladau:
And if they were deaf, that would still not be your business.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But it’s what do you think that I’m going to say that they won’t say?

Emily Ladau:
I feel we got onto a totally different topic than we started, but what even was our original point?

Kyle Khachadurian:
That it’s exhausting to have to constantly explain your existence. But coming out of that, are all these examples.

Emily Ladau:
That is exactly our point.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. It’s I’m just doing it from a third person perspective. Just because I’m with someone who looks more disabled, I must be the helper? I got news for you buddy…

Emily Ladau:
What about online? Have you ever gotten into it with someone online? I’m sure you have.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. I couldn’t give you an example, but 100%. I remember this, yes, but this isn’t relevant to this conversation, but yes I have.

Emily Ladau:
I mean, you can tell me if you want to.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, it was when, can we say the [inaudible 00:26:03], but were didn’t rights when they first released Bottom Dollars. I got into it with this guy. Look this was before I knew Court. I knew you worked there, right, but I got into it with this guy who was like, “What do we need to pay them for?” And it turned out that this dude just flat out didn’t believe in a minimum wage for anybody. And it was just, “Oh, okay, well, at first I thought you were an ableist but it turns out you’re just a jerk.”

Emily Ladau:
I remember this.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Which I suppose is better than being ableist because you’re mean to everybody. You’re not just mean to one specific.

Emily Ladau:
You are an equal opportunity jerk.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But I mean, it’s typically not worth it to me because I can tell you with complete honesty, what I’m arguing online I am not doing it to change someone’s mind. I’m doing it because they’re annoying and I want to tell them how annoying they are. I am not in it to change someone’s mind. Oh, actually I take that back. That is true most of the time. One time a woman posted a photo of her child crying in pain on social media.

Emily Ladau:
I know exactly the example you’re going to talk about. Keep going.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And I hated it. I hated it, but I completely understood why someone might do it. And so I approached it just like that. And this kid happened to have my disability so it was a little bit personal. Even though she had…

Emily Ladau:
Very evil. You wouldn’t yourself displayed like that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No I wouldn’t. But she did have some more severe CP. And not that that matters, but I have noticed that the more severe your disability tends to present itself, the less people regard you as a human and therefore disregard your privacy. Come at me with that.

Emily Ladau:
Yup.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Anyway. So I said very pointed, “Hey, I’m your daughter, 25 or however many years it was into the future. And I want you to know that this is not good and I get why you did it. And I get that this disability can suck. I can tell you that it does firsthand. And I’m actually really happy that you’re getting that part of the message out. I just hate the way you did it.” I was nice about it. And I wrote this really long thing and I really should have been mean because of the response I got was, it was something to the effect of F you, that’s just your opinion. And it’s like, “I know it’s just my opinion that’s why I said it. I’m telling you this because I want you to remove yourself and think about your daughter.” And she was like, “That’s great. Bye.” And it’s like, “Okay, well, you’re just garbage. I don’t…”

Emily Ladau:
This mom did that to everybody though. I remember it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I don’t think she was like [inaudible 00:28:52] on me, but I’m just saying…

Emily Ladau:
No she would [inaudible 00:28:54] on a lot of disabled people, because I remember she posted this photo of her daughter in this ridiculously vulnerable moment. And nobody would ever want that on the internet. And it was them. And I remember how many disabled people where like, “This is not cool.” And she was like, “I don’t care.” And it goes right back to being exhausting because it’s talking to a brick wall.

Kyle Khachadurian:
The thing is, and I think this, I mean, we’ve talked about privacy before, but I really do think the exhausting part is just the complete disregard for our own humanity.

Emily Ladau:
Yep.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s one thing to explain, why do I walk funny or why are you in that wheelchair, right? Why do my feet turn outward? I don’t know, a physical characteristic or your disability, whatever. But if someone wants to learn fine, you give them a one-line example and that’s okay. Most people are sufficient with that or good with that. But they don’t really want to know why, they just want to look at you and study you with their eyes and judge you. And they’re filling that awkwardness with questions they don’t care about the answer to, and they don’t value you as a person. They don’t even look at you like a person. They look at you like a weird thing that is different than the typical things they see every day. And this is what’s exhausting.

Emily Ladau:
Perpetuate that. It’s just a constant cycle.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And you know what the [inaudible 00:30:16] thing is too, these people literally don’t know what ableism is, but they do because they’re the same people who say, “Well, if I were you, I wouldn’t want to live like that.” And it’s, “Oh, well, why not? Please tell me.”

Emily Ladau:
Right, that’s interesting, tell me more.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Please tell me why not? Because I mean, hey, if it’s so terrible, clearly, you know why, right?

Emily Ladau:
If I were, you I’d lay in bed and cry all day. Literally what the hairdresser said to me. Oh, why is that? Let’s unpack that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Because you know what you’d find if you did? It does suck, but not for the reasons you think at all.

Emily Ladau:
It’s mostly because society makes it suck. That’s not to say the disability doesn’t suck, like you and I are not realistic about that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No way disability blows a lot of the time. I’m more than happy to admit that. In fact, I think the greater disability community tends to do itself a disservice by not talking about that too much. But I also know why they don’t it’s because of people like that, that take it out of context and use it as ammunition for the see, it sucks.

Emily Ladau:
Yup. Also, I just want to go back to, you said something about how you don’t say things to change people’s minds, but I think I do that a lot. I really want to change people’s minds. And there’s this [inaudible 00:31:37] Gainsbourg quote. I just looked it up so I get it right. It’s, “Fight for the things that you care about, but do it in a way that will lead others to join you.” And that informs a lot of what I do. I don’t want to alienate people, I actually want to get people to care about disability. But it is really, really hard to constantly come up against people, especially non-disabled people who just don’t want to hear what you have to say. It’s exhausting. I know we keep using that word.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It is exhausting. It’s terribly exhausting. I should point out, I just want to say I was specifically talking about argument on social media. I do what you’re describing on this podcast. That is how I do this. But if I’m arguing with [inaudible 00:32:21] on social media, I’m not doing it to change their mind, I’m doing it because I think they’re wrong and I want them to know it. Anyway.

Emily Ladau:
I just wish that people would recognize when they’re wrong. I mean, I have definitely had my behind handed to me and been told that I’m very wrong and I don’t like it, but I learned something from it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I have never, ever been in that situation and come out worse for it. It really does, it sucks in the moment, but then if you really look at your… I mean, the people that are saying that to you are probably right if you’ve done wrong. But that’s not what these people are doing. They’re not saying, “Emily, I think you could do better if you said X instead of Y and here’s why,” they’re just saying, “I don’t like that you told me I might be wrong about something, screw you.” It’s not productive and it’s not right.

Emily Ladau:
Nope. Not at all. It’s very defensive. People get defensive and then they stop actually listening to what you’re saying. And I’ve probably done that before. No, not probably. I’ve definitely done that before. Of course, they have you say mm-hmm (affirmative) because I’ve probably done it to you before, come on.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, no. And I’ve 100% done it to you and a hundred other people, that’s human instinct. But I just think it might be different. If somebody tells me something that I did that was racist or homophobic or IST, I’m not going to be, “No, it wasn’t,” it’s just weird. It’s just weird. The most I would do in that situation is maybe provide some context that they might not know and that could potentially make it a little better, that’s it. I don’t know, man. I just don’t have that. I’m not saying I’m perfect, I’m not, not even close. I’m just saying the urge to defend myself at every single turn is as exhausting to me, I think, as literally defending my existence every time. I just don’t understand, you must be on the offense all the time if you’re one of those people.

Emily Ladau:
And I, speaking of being on the offense all the time, I feel I’m on the defense all the time. Not in terms of like being defensive for being called out, but I feel I’m on the defensive because people are constantly subjecting me to judgements just because I exist in the world. And so I’m on the defensive all the time.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, the world isn’t doing you any favors, it’s not really your fault.

Emily Ladau:
I mean, but I also genuinely don’t want to convey to people that I am angry at them. I want to try to get through to them. But then in trying to constantly get through to people, always picking my words so carefully, always trying to meet people where they’re at, that is always my priority but sometimes they get real tired. I think this episode is just about we’re tired.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, but I mean, think about the state of the world and think about simultaneously you have a set of circumstances that makes it really easy to be disabled in a very specific aspect. For example, working from home is finally acceptable, but it also makes it really hard in every other aspect. And it’s ridiculous because in the sense you have this able-bodied population who is getting a very, very, very, very small taste of what life would the disability could potentially be if you’re someone that can’t leave their home without help or something like that. I mean, they can, it’s just you because of the virus. And it’s imagine, imagine having… If your life didn’t really change because of COVID, because you have a disability that prevents you from leaving the house, this to you feels normal. And what people are describing as cabin fever or losing their mind because they’re at home so much, it’s like, oh, are you? Dude that sucks? There are disabled people that go through this every day and it’s when we bring it up, it’s I don’t know. I’m not even making cogent point.

Emily Ladau:
No you are. Because once again, it comes back to the fact that it’s [inaudible 00:36:43], we’re tired of telling you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
We’ve been saying this though.

Emily Ladau:
Exactly, that’s the point.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And it’s you’re only getting it now because it affects you. And it’s like shut up.

Emily Ladau:
[inaudible 00:37:00].

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’ve been saying this before, it was cool. No, well, I’m bitter about that. I’m genuinely bitter about that part, but I’m not trying to come off as a bitter person. I’m just tired just like you.

Emily Ladau:
You know what? Disabled people need a collective nap here is what we all need. I would like to give every disabled person permission to be, actually I am exhausted, I’m taking a break.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I work at a disability world too and every once in a while, this situation doesn’t happen because I work in a very inclusive and accepting workplace. But occasionally I will have to come face-to-face with my disability in some other weird way. It’s oh COVID-19 deaths among people who have developmental disabilities is some giant percentage higher than everybody else. And it’s, oh, thank you. Thank you. That’s a nice statistic to learn before noon. But the rest of my day is going to be great.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I’ve had a couple of friends, literally text me about that. “Did you know we have a higher chance of dying because we’re developmentally disabled?” This was back earlier on in the pandemic. And I was just like, “I’m tired.” That’s my response, I am tired.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But anyway, I guess if I had to form a coherent final takeaway, it would be Emily and I are exhausted. And it’s not because of anything that any one person did, it’s because it’s kind of if you’re a retail worker, how many times have you heard the joke, oh, there’s no sticker on it, it must be free. And the customer thinks that they’re the first person to ever make that joke and they can’t imagine why you’re not laughing at it. But in reality it’s because every single person that they saw that day made that joke and so did every single person yesterday.

Emily Ladau:
And the day before.

Kyle Khachadurian:
If you ask us a question or something like that, and we come off as that retail worker, it’s not because we’re angry, it’s because you’re the last person to ask us that thing in a long, long string of people and we’re just tired of it.

Emily Ladau:
Exactly. That’s exactly it. I feel I’m on the metaphorical hamster wheel all the time, or playing a game of whack-a-mole, bang down one mole and then another one pops up and does the exact same thing on repeat.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It would be if somebody narrated your life, but only in backhanded compliments, literally. “Oh, isn’t it so nice that you’re out? How interesting that you left the house today? I couldn’t do it if I were you.”

Emily Ladau:
Yup. That was the comment that I got to the hairdressers the other day.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But it’s like that, but at random, but it’s guaranteed to happen to you every day at least once. And so you’re constantly on your guard. And then if you say something about it, then you’re the bitter one.

Emily Ladau:
Yup. Okay. Actually I was going to give a final takeaway for what I want people to remember to not do, but instead my final takeaway is that it is okay for disabled people to be tired of this. And it is okay if you’re not always on your game with the right answer or the right thing to say, or you don’t always have a smile pasted on your face. It’s okay to be exhausted. I think someone should play a drinking game for how many times we said the word exhausted in this episode.

Kyle Khachadurian:
We will not be held responsible for any deaths due to alcohol poisoning.

Emily Ladau:
No please do it with water. Thank you. But I’m exhausted, you’re exhausted, we’re exhausted, it’s okay. You’re not alone.

Kyle Khachadurian:
This has been another episode of The Accessible Stall. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, consider supporting the show at patrion.com/theaccessiblestall. Just $1 a month ensures that all current and future episodes of The Accessible Stall remain, what is it Emily?

Emily Ladau:
Accessible.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That’s right.

Emily Ladau:
As in we get them captioned because we believe in access.

Kyle Khachadurian:
We do practice what we preach after all here in The Accessible Stall.

Emily Ladau:
Why don’t you come join us? Don’t actually, social distancing. Please get out of my bathroom stall. [inaudible 00:41:38]

Kyle Khachadurian:
Emily and I are just hanging out in here because we’ve been in here since 2016. When we entered this bathroom stall, Obama was president. Just so you know, we’ve been in here ever since.

Emily Ladau:
That’s a weird thought. I’m going to sit with that for a while. How do we not acknowledge five years? We’ve been doing this for five years. Why did it take us 42 minutes to say that?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Because above all else, Emily, you and I stay on brand and that is The Accessible Stall way.

Emily Ladau:
We bury the lead until the very end, it’s fine. Okay. Thank you so much for listening. And might we say you look fabulous and you look even better with your mask on.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Don’t stop wearing it. I know the CDC says it’s okay to not wear it outdoors, if you’re vaccinated, that is. But you don’t want people thinking you’re an anti masker, do you?

Emily Ladau:
I think about that a lot when I’m not wearing it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I know, me too. It’s like, “What are they going to think of me?”

Emily Ladau:
I mean, I have at this point taking it off when I am outside away from other people and with someone also vaccinated, but otherwise wear are your gosh darn mask?

Kyle Khachadurian:
And also you got to put it on anyway when you walk in anywhere.

Emily Ladau:
So just wear it. But anyway, you look fabulous. Thanks so much for listening.

Kyle Khachadurian:
See you next time.

Emily Ladau:
Bye.