Emily Ladau:
Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau:
And you’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian:
What are we going to talk about today, Emily?

Emily Ladau:
I think it’s high time that we had a conversation about internalized ableism.

Kyle Khachadurian:
What on earth is internalized ableism? That’s a lot of words even though it’s only two.

Emily Ladau:
Kyle, I’m so glad you asked. Why don’t we unpack that? Seriously, though, I would describe internalized ableism as holding on to negative feelings about yourself as a disabled person because of how society perceives disability.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That is a very succinct … You should be an author or something.

Emily Ladau:
What? I’ve never written a book in my life. I just made that up, actually. What do you think? Would you agree?

Kyle Khachadurian:
I think it’s a great definition.

Emily Ladau:
I do think we need to talk about it a lot because we tend to shove it down even further inside ourselves even though it’s already internalized. And then, just not admit to the fact that we’re feeling it and I know I have been feeling it a lot lately.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s funny, growing up, I was the least disabled kid in my school. And so, I don’t mean to brag but it’s-

Emily Ladau:
Humble brag. I was the least disabled?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, no. I say that because I didn’t really get or feel internalized ableism until into my adulthood. And I feel like for you, that’s probably not true even if you didn’t know what it was at the time.

Emily Ladau:
Well, that’s the key, right? I didn’t know what it was, I cannot possibly tell you when I even learned the term ableism, to be quite honest with you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, as a disabled person, one day, you just wake up with this knowledge in your head.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, I think it seeped in by osmosis overnight. I don’t know where it came from. But yeah, okay, I know, at least for me and for most of the people that I know, you don’t just sit down and have the talk. You have the sex talk but you don’t have the ableism and the internalized ableism talk. I feel like it’s this gradual realization that, first of all, you live in a world that doesn’t really like you. And, second of all, it makes you not like yourself.

Kyle Khachadurian:
See, that’s interesting. I know, you’re being half funny but the fact that you grew up with a mother who has not only a disability like yours, I would have assumed that if anyone were to have the talk, as it were, it would be you. So, it’s interesting that that actually never happened.

Emily Ladau:
Well, yeah. But I think for me, there was the implication that I should like who I am but there was never the talk probably because, and I know she gets mad at me when I speak for her, so I’m making an assumption here but I’m not really because she’s told me. My mother also grappled with internalized ableism but probably didn’t have the words to express it. So-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Right.

Emily Ladau:
… I think both of us were but it wasn’t until much later in life when I started meeting a lot of other disabled people and having these conversations that I can then go to my mom and be like, “Yeah, what we’re feeling is this self-loathing because other people have all of these negative assumptions about us.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s just cruel because, at least the way that I grew up in the school that I went to, they were really hard on me. Don’t ever say can’t, always ask for help, always believe in yourself. These platitudes that are meaningless now but you needed to hear as a kid. And looking back, I think part of the reason that they were into that is because that was baby’s first shield against internalized ableism. They were pre-empting us without us even knowing that the world doesn’t like us. This here is safe, the outside world isn’t and when you get there, here’s what you need to remember. And I remember thinking it was so corny at the time and, as an adult, I really think it’s super corny but I can appreciate the fact that it was probably necessary for a bunch of kids.

Emily Ladau:
Did you ever believe it though? When you’re told don’t say can’t, don’t say that-

Kyle Khachadurian:
No.

Emily Ladau:
… I can’t do something.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, that’s why it was so corny. I didn’t but, maybe, someone did. But even though I didn’t internalize it, it got to me. It did because I was so stubborn for a very long time to say that I couldn’t, unless it was something that I straight up couldn’t do. There’s a line. It’s like, “I can’t jump rope. I can’t ride a bike,” but I tried, though. I tried and it took a long time for me to give up and be like, “This is just not for me.”

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, and I’m thinking about it from a perspective of aspirations when you grow up. If I said I wanted to be a firefighter-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
… was that really a realistic goal for me?

Kyle Khachadurian:
When I grew up in the early 2000s, every boy wanted to be a police officer and my parents were just like, “You’re not going to be a cop.” I’m so glad that they did that. And I’m not saying that for political reasons at all. I’m so glad that they decided and that they were like, “That’s just not going to happen.” And I didn’t understand it at the time because I was five years old or six or however old I was. I was too young. But that matter of factness, at the time, it probably hurt my feelings but, now, I can think back to it and be like, “Yeah, they were right.”

Emily Ladau:
So, where’s that balance between you can do whatever you set your mind to but, also, the world is working against you and, also, you’re probably working against yourself by internalizing attitudes?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, I think that the reason I was late to the party with internalizing those attitudes is because I had such positivity in my life. I don’t like when people use positivity as a crutch to deal with ableism. If you’re a positive person in general, whatever, that’s fine, good for you, I wish I was like that. But if you use this false positivity that we were fed to combat the feelings that you’re feeling instead of talking about them, I don’t like that and I think that that’s what was happening to me later in life. And it just stopped working, you know what I mean? There I am 18, fresh out of high school, and I’m like, “I’m not going to say I can’t. I can do it if I try.” But it’s like, “No, I really can’t and that’s okay.” And I think I accepted that early but I don’t know if everyone that I grew up with did or I don’t know if every single person does. It’s hard to get over that.

Emily Ladau:
I think I had a couple of moments where there were really stark reminders that there were certain things that I thought I could do that other people didn’t think I could do and then I began to internalize it. So, probably a good example of that is that I thought I was going to be a high school English teacher and I was about to start the student teaching program and then, one of the student teaching program organizers or whatever said to me, “I wasn’t really sure how we were going to manage having you student teach, how are you going to get back and forth,” because I wasn’t driving at the time. And she just seemed like she was almost relieved that I had decided not to go ahead with the student teaching program. And, I think it was in that moment that I realized, “Oh, other people think I can’t do this.” So, sometimes you do believe that you can do something and then, suddenly, someone else plants that seed of doubt in you and, I think, that’s where a lot of internalized ableism comes from, at least in terms of capability.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Is that where you decided to not do that? I know, ultimately, she’s not the reason you decided not to pursue that, but partially?

Emily Ladau:
No-

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’m just curious.

Emily Ladau:
I had honestly gone to her to tell her I was pretty much set on withdrawing from the program, but I think it was just the lack of protest from her that made me realize like, “Oh, she didn’t really have faith in me. She didn’t think I can do this.” So, it all turned out for the best. So, I don’t know if that’s the greatest example but, in the moment, that was a reminder that, “Oh, yeah, other people think that can’t do things.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s funny because when I do it to myself and this is ironic because we’re talking about internalized ableism. But I hate it so much more when other people do it but it’s probably more damaging when I do it to myself.

Emily Ladau:
Oh, absolutely. But it’s a vicious cycle that you can’t get out of. It’s like an extra layer of insecurity and if it’s not about my ability to do something, it’s very often about how I look. So-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, I totally agree.

Emily Ladau:
There’s multiple layers to this. Sometimes, I internalize the feeling of being unable but, more often than not, my particular brand of internalized ableism has a lot to do with two things. First of all, my appearance and, second of all, my feelings of being a burden to other people.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I 100% agree and I think that that’s because it speaks to a different issue where the more disabled that you look, you guys can’t see but I just did some air quotes, the greater the assumption is of the inability to do anything, whether or not it’s actually true, which is the point. So, it’s different when someone assumes that I can’t do something and then I do it, it’s a pleasant surprise for them and they, maybe, realize that they shouldn’t have done that. But if we look more disabled, those assumptions are not only made but, also, already ingrained and you’re not coming at it from the same place anymore. You’re no longer equal.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, I know there’s so many assumptions that people make when they look at me, but then, those assumptions change when I start to talk to them which is ableism in and of itself.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emily Ladau:
[inaudible 00:11:10] why did I have to verbally communicate with you in order for you to not make assumptions about me as a person?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, verbal communication is, literally, the only way to communicate. There’s no other way whatsoever.

Emily Ladau:
No other way. Sarcasm, obviously. But I think, for me, despite the fact that there’s nothing I can do to not particularly look disabled in the sense that I will always be seen with my wheelchair, I still have my limits. And, this is so silly but this has been on my mind because, the other day, I saw a person on Twitter actually posting about how they got a headrest for their wheelchair and they felt like getting the headrest meant that they would no longer look like a badass. And that resonated with me so much because I have such a problem with having a headrest on my wheelchair because I feel like that’s my line, that makes me look to disabled and that’s clearly a matter of internalized ableism. But then, I have to stop and ask myself, “Oh, the rest of the 400-pound tank on my butt doesn’t make me look disabled? But that headrest-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, that’s fine.

Emily Ladau:
… that headrest-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
… went over the line.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I feel that way with mobility. I’m not shaming anyone who uses them and I use a cane for super long distances. When I need one, that whole feeling goes out the window because I don’t give it (beep) if I really need it. But yeah, I feel that way with mobility. I think it’s different if I’m walking still. Obviously, it’s way different if I’m still ambulating than if you’re using a wheelchair. But I feel like, in my case, I’m probably more likely to get sympathy where you’re more likely to get pity and both of those things are not very good.

Emily Ladau:
That’s an interesting distinction, though, and I think you’re absolutely right.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
I feel like people feel bad for you but sorry for me and I do think there’s a difference.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, yeah, they’re totally and it’s super unfair. It’s one, we didn’t ask for this. And, two, it’s like, “Why don’t you feel sorry for me? Why don’t you feel bad for her? What is that difference? You shouldn’t feel anything either way.” But I think people think wheelchairs mean you’re more disabled and I’m using more very broadly here. Especially if you’re young, a wheelchair just means something is wrong rather than something has happened and will be fixed.

Emily Ladau:
Wheelchair seems to be the universal symbol for disabled. It literally is the universal symbol.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, yeah, it is.

Emily Ladau:
But also, I think that people presume that there’s only one way to look disabled and that it’s being a wheelchair user. So, where was I going with this? Oh, but one interesting thing and I guess this is not internalized ableism so much as it is just grappling with other people’s assumptions when they look at me. While I’ve been healing from my injury, I’ve had a cast on my leg and I honestly can’t remember if I said this in the episode that we recorded about it, so listeners, forgive me if I did. But basically, I think people now look at the cast and they’re like, “Oh, she’s legit. That’s why she’s using a wheelchair. Yeah, I totally I get it. She’ll be out of that in no time.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
See, that’s funny to me not just because you won’t, but it’s just there’s something else about you that, suddenly, makes the mystery in their mind makes sense even though it’s just not true.

Emily Ladau:
Right. Otherwise, “Why was she sitting in that? She looks pretty fine.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
You should put hinges on a cast and put one on your leg whenever you go anywhere.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, I really do.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It would save so many awkward moments.

Emily Ladau:
And then just pop it off?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
Surprise.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, yeah-

Emily Ladau:
And then, stand up and walk.

Kyle Khachadurian:
… because I needed this the whole time. Oh, well, that’s your real trick. I was saying that your wheelchair really isn’t but I like your idea better. You should definitely do that.

Emily Ladau:
I’ll work on walking. But-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, internalized ableism is a big thing for me in terms of capability and in terms of appearance. But another thing that I’ve been thinking about and I know I didn’t warn you about this beforehand, there was an article I read, I should have sent it to you but let’s just go with it. So, there was an article in The Washington Post and it was a case study, if you will, on female caregivers of paralyzed men-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Okay.

Emily Ladau:
… who had become injured later in life. And the article made really important points about the fact that caregiving for a disabled family member can often be a lot of work and require round the clock care and that care goes uncompensated and people have to quit their jobs in order to give the care and they can’t afford outside care because insurance puts so many limits on you in terms of the amount of assets that you have and the amount of hours of care that you’re eligible for.

Emily Ladau:
And then, you can’t get married because that will reduce your benefits and things like that. So, the article pointed all of that out but it also painted disabled people, the paralyzed husbands in the article specifically, as being burdens and didn’t really quote them or get their sides of the story at all. And so, that’s my biggest issue with internalized ableism is I am constantly fighting against the feeling that I am a burden and constantly having society reiterate to me that I am one.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You said disabled men and female caregivers. Are these caregivers their spouses, their wives?

Emily Ladau:
Girlfriends-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Because you said husbands.

Emily Ladau:
… spouse, yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, but they’re not traders?

Emily Ladau:
No, they’re basically girlfriend, spouse, lover, caregiver-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Okay.

Emily Ladau:
… all in one combo deal. And every time I read an article like that, on the one hand, I appreciate the policy points because I absolutely think that insurance needs to do a better job of providing for care and I understand that caregiving is certainly quite a lot of work. But I can’t shake this feeling that I, too, am a huge burden on everyone and I don’t know if that’s where being quote unquote, more disabled than you comes in. Do you ever have that burdensome feeling?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. Well, actually, just before we get into this. While we’re here, the Biden administration should absolutely fund home and community-based services so that problems like this should cease to exist or, at least, are very alleviated. Thank you. Off my soapbox.

Emily Ladau:
One I completely agree with. We could do a whole episode.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, we should.

Emily Ladau:
We should bring in an expert on that. Anyway, that’s for another day.

Kyle Khachadurian:
We should. That’s a great idea. Anyway, but I don’t really feel it. I have fleeting feelings of what it might be like when I’m older is what I think. I don’t feel it now but I know it’s coming. I don’t think it’s coming. I’m sure that, at some point, I don’t know if I’m going to need external care. I don’t know if I’m going to need a caregiver but I also don’t want to put any responsibility on my wife that she didn’t sign up for even though it’s probably going to happen. That bothers me.

Emily Ladau:
He’s not married yet.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’m not married yet. Wife to be.

Emily Ladau:
[inaudible 00:19:06] in the future.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, sorry. Thank you. No, but really, that’s what I think about. I know that your spouse is supposed to be with you, richer, poorer, sickness, health, whatever they say. I don’t know, I’ve never been married. But there’s a point where it’s like, “Okay, but is this what I signed up for it?” And I look at those stories, especially when I see them, where a wife takes care of her husband who lost all his limbs. I don’t think you deserve praise for it, I don’t think that that makes you newsworthy but I do think that it, unfortunately, makes you atypical because I think that a lot of people would say, “That’s too much for me.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
I don’t know if most people would blame them for leaving. I don’t even know if I would and I’m over here saying that they should stay. And so, that’s what I think about. It’s like, “I’m okay now and I’m independent now and I’ll probably be independent when I get married but it’s not going to last forever.” And so, yeah, I feel that way for later.

Emily Ladau:
And that’s what I struggle with currently, especially while I’ve been dealing with my, I was going to say industry, injury. I’ve required more care and I remember the first time that I asked my boyfriend to help me with going to the bathroom, not that he hasn’t helped me with plenty of things before, but in this very specific moment after my injury and he was helping me use the restroom and I know that’s a very common thing for a lot of caregivers. And I’ve certainly been helped to the bathroom plenty of times by plenty of people but-

Kyle Khachadurian:
But not him?

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, not in that particular way and I really had to grapple with that internally because I’m sitting there thinking, “This is it. He’s going to leave me. This is too much for him.” And, not the case. But for me, I’ve had to talk to him repeatedly just to get it out of my system about how I’m constantly feeling like one day, I’m just going to put him over the edge with whatever caregiving that I need. And I feel like I’ve internalized that because that’s the message constantly sent. You’re a burden and I wish that we could have these nuanced conversations where it’s like, “Yes, caregivers of disabled people do go above and beyond but, also, don’t talk about the disabled person like they’re just a burden.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
We really do need to do that episode on home and community-based services.

Emily Ladau:
We really do.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
We really do.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, the reason I’m saying that again, though, is because if this was adequately funded and you didn’t have to worry about it as much as you do, I’m going to guess you probably wouldn’t feel that way or, at least, not nearly as much.

Emily Ladau:
Well, if you knew-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Like if-

Emily Ladau:
… you had financial, unrestricted access to the care that you needed, yeah, I think that would alleviate a strong feeling of being burdensome.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so, although the feelings are internal and although we say this to ourselves, the causes of those feelings are very much not internal and that’s probably true for a lot of what we regard as internalized ableism.

Emily Ladau:
Oh, yeah, it’s systemic issues that cause these feelings of internalized ableism. Because, honestly, I think that if our systems were set up to actually empower disabled people to get the care that they need in a setting that works for them, then we wouldn’t be having these conversations because there would be a much stronger balance between loved ones providing caregiving and not having the financial hurdles and having access to the services that you need. So, yeah, I think about that a lot. But at the same time, regardless of policy issues, I still have these feelings that I can’t shake. Like how-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, yeah.

Emily Ladau:
I tell other people, I would tell any other person, do not ever call yourself a burden. Don’t call yourself a burden. Me, though, oh, man, I am the world’s biggest burden.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, yeah. Same. I find myself worrying about it in the most mundane … If I ever propose, I can’t get down on one knee, does she care? I know, she doesn’t care. I care. I care a lot. It bothers me. Why? It’s stupid. That’s not the way you have to do it but it’s the way that you have to do it and things like that. But it’s always little things like that. It’s death by a thousand cuts. I don’t feel like a burden as a guy but little things that I have to worry about and do and compensate for in life all add up to me being this giant pain in the ass to anyone who I’m unfortunately in the room with and I feel that

Emily Ladau:
I think that relates back to the gender episode that we did-

Kyle Khachadurian:
True.

Emily Ladau:
… where we were talking about how disability and performing gender are intertwined.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emily Ladau:
And I guess, for me, and I say this knowing full well that my grandma listens to this podcast but I’m going to say it anyway.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Sorry, grandma.

Emily Ladau:
Sorry, grandma. For me, and I probably at least alluded to this in the gender episode, this just goes to show you my injury has fried my brain even though it had nothing to do with brain injury but it threw me off completely so I can’t remember things from the beginning of this year. But with disability and gender, every scene in a movie tells you that you should get down on one knee, every scene in a movie tells me that my foot should pop when I’m kissing my boyfriend and that-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Has anyone ever actually done that? I’m sorry, I don’t mean to … I’m sorry.

Emily Ladau:
And-

Kyle Khachadurian:
If you’ve done that, can you please send us a message?

Emily Ladau:
Please let me know. And then every scene in a movie tells me that my boyfriend should be able to just pick me up and throw me into the bed or that I should just be able to climb on top of him and none of that is physically true for me. Therefore, I internalized that I am, somehow, less of a woman or not as good of a girlfriend or whatever the case may be. And so, that is internalized ableism that’s a direct result of there’s some societal norm that we see over and over again but we can’t replicate it ourselves.

Kyle Khachadurian:
There’s a lot of societal norms that I’m like, “Should it be that way? Probably not.” But these are ones that are pretty much innocent. Should they be this way? There’s probably no good reason for it but there’s nothing wrong with them. And so, yeah. And just as you said, too, how you’re your biggest burden. In a private setting, if you express this to me, I’d be like, “What the (beep) do you care for?” And if I said that to you, you’d probably say the same to me. But no, those feelings are real and I’m realizing now, and this is the whole definition of internalized ableism. It’s coming for me even though I know I don’t care, but I do. My lizard brain, some part of me really does care a lot. And yeah, it’s crazy. I don’t like it.

Emily Ladau:
I think I’m just remembering now, also, and this goes back to appearance but sometimes you just don’t think about it at all. Sometimes you don’t think about it until you’re confronted with it. I remember you saying something about catching yourself in a mirror, walking.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, I hate that. Oh, God, I hate that so much.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, talk more about that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
It’s a perfect example. Okay. So, I limp when I walk and I don’t see it through my eyes, I don’t see it. I know it’s there because I can see it if I look at my feet but I don’t see it and I don’t feel it. If I pass a mirror and I catch myself in it, I’m disgusted. It’s not like I’m grotesque but it’s like, “Is that me? God, I left the house. Why? How is no one saying anything to me?” It’s because nobody cares. And that’s good that they-

Emily Ladau:
Right. And also, you would never ever say that to anybody else.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, God, no. No, of course not. And the other thing, too, is I don’t even know … That one actually baffles me because it’s like a physical version of hearing your own voice but worse. No one likes to say-

Emily Ladau:
Does that still apply to you because you have [crosstalk 00:28:32]?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, but the voice I hear in my head is way cooler than what you hear. It is and I can appreciate that other people think that my voice is nice, thank you but I can’t stand it. Although years and years of editing this podcast have made me not very sensitive to sound my voice anymore. But to that end, when I record myself, when I walk on camera, when I catch myself in the mirror, I’m like, “God, I…”

Kyle Khachadurian:
When I think of my CP, I don’t think, “Oh, wow, I’m super disabled.” I think, “Oh, God. How lucky am I that I don’t have to use a wheelchair like some people do.” Not that there’s anything wrong with that but you know. But then, when I see myself, I’m like, “Oh, man. Maybe I should. That’s how I walk? God, it looks so bad.” But then, no one cares.

Emily Ladau:
Internalized ableism is a terrible thing because we are our own worst enemies. I say some nasty things to myself just like you were saying about yourself. I say some-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
… nasty things to myself, would not even think them about other people, would not even occurr to me think it about someone else. But me? No, I’m gross, I’m disgusting. This wheelchair, this headrest, oh, man. I am an unapproachable beast.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And the funny thing is, I can’t do anything about how I walk. Yes, I can but it’s not going to fix it to the point where I won’t look silly in a mirror but that’s fine. I don’t avoid mirrors. I don’t hate it that much but it’s like, for example, if I had crutches, oh, no. No, that’s unacceptable. If I had an [XO’s 00:30:06] embrace, no way.

Emily Ladau:
Even though, really, it’s not because I feel like you would use them if it came down to it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Of course. No, no. Yes, absolutely. If needed them to live and I’m stubborn and I’ll do it until the very last day before I can’t anymore. But if I needed them, I would. So, yeah, it’s a little different but, right now, that’s unacceptable. But even things that are invisible are unacceptable to me. Like a shoe insert that would make my leg limp a little less limpy, no way I’m doing that.

Emily Ladau:
Why wouldn’t you use a shoe insert? I’m going to fight back-

Kyle Khachadurian:
I don’t know.

Emily Ladau:
… on that one.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, I don’t know. You should fight back on it. It’s stupid that I won’t do it. It’s so dumb but I don’t.

Emily Ladau:
Get a damn insert. Are you kidding me? Would that actually solve your problems? I mean-

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, but it would mitigate them a little bit.

Emily Ladau:
I am rolling my eyes so hard right now.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You should, you should. That’s the point of this episode. It’s so-

Emily Ladau:
But also, if you were like, “Emily, wouldn’t it be really great if you could lean your head back so that your neck wouldn’t hurt so much and put your headrest on?” I’d be like, “Haha, (beep) you.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
Right, no. But no one’s going to care. Unless I had an iron lung and had to be wheeled around, I don’t think anyone would actually care. And so-

Emily Ladau:
Well, even if you had an iron lung, what do you mean by care? Like notice?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, well. Yeah, I didn’t mean notice. That’s not true. People would notice crutches, you’re right. But I mean I don’t think I would get that much more stared at. Because I know how I look when I walk and I don’t get stared at. I don’t think if I had crutches as an adult I would get stared at too much more. Maybe I’m wrong.

Emily Ladau:
I feel very strongly, I need to add this caveat because I know that we know this. But just thinking of anybody listening is like, “They’re being so ableist right now.” I really need to clarify. Yes, that is the point but we are directing it at ourselves. This is not us being ableist towards anyone else. This is we have internalized all of these horrible ableist beliefs and turned them back on ourselves. And so, I just want people to very clearly understand I am not placing a valued judgment on anyone or anything or anyone’s choices. This is just me talking and Kyle talking about things that we have grappled with internally because society tells us that these things are bad or wrong or unattractive or whatever the case is.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, this is not-

Emily Ladau:
It took me 30 minutes to make that disclaimer but I really felt like I needed to.

Kyle Khachadurian:
We’ll put a little disclaimer also at the beginning. But I wouldn’t judge anyone for using any mobility aid, for example. You do you and I’m not thinking any less of you. But I’m saying I would think less of me if I use them unless I needed them. In which case, I would, too.

Emily Ladau:
Hypocritical [inaudible 00:33:02] but we can’t help ourselves.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, but it is. But the difference is that if I needed the, I would deal with that while using them. I wouldn’t flat out refuse. I’m not past that.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. I’ve seen lots of other disabled people that I know post about how when they finally gave in to something that they were worried about, it actually improves their life. And so, I’m going to have a fight with you offline about shoe inserts or whatever. But-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Okay. You know how deep it goes though? This is so stupid now. I used to cheat on my eye test because I didn’t want glasses. You know I got glasses when I was 16. You know when I could have had them? When I was nine.

Emily Ladau:
I love how you are-

Kyle Khachadurian:
There’s nothing-

Emily Ladau:
… with glasses.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Me, too. There’s nothing wrong with glasses at all. Glasses aren’t even thought of as disabled.

Emily Ladau:
Even though they’re very much assistive technology.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Isn’t that funny? I think it’s funny.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And you know what’s even weirder to me is that hearing aids, not the same at all. Even though, for your ear, it does the same thing that glasses do for your eyes. But for some reason, with hearing aids, it’s a smaller segment than a wheelchair, but it is there. Meanwhile, glasses are just a thing people have.

Emily Ladau:
Well, I got my hearing aids. We did a whole episode about it and then I just have given up on them for many reasons. Because I’m stubborn, because we’re all stubborn. Because human beings are so stubborn. We would tell anybody else to do the right thing for themselves but, when it comes to us, we’re going to make our lives as difficult as possible.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Because it’s better that way even though it’s not.

Emily Ladau:
Man, you cheated on your eye tests?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, yeah. I used to put myself in line behind the guy with 20/20 vision and I would memorize what he said.

Emily Ladau:
I’m telling your mother.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I told her.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, knew it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You know what’s cool though? It’s not just that I cheated, I actually am very good nearsighted. So, when they would do the reading test where they would put a little plastic thing and hold a thing far away from you to read, I would always be able to read the smallest print because I can without glasses. That’s just how my eyes are. So, they never really thought too much about-

Emily Ladau:
So, you’re farsighted?

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, I’m nearsighted.

Emily Ladau:
I’m nearsighted.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, you and I have the same vision-ish, I think. But-

Emily Ladau:
I’ll try on your glasses next time I see you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
There you go. I’m minus three in both eyes, ish.

Emily Ladau:
I have the paper around here somewhere. I don’t really know what I am.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You don’t have your prescription memorized?

Emily Ladau:
No, I don’t but, actually, I’m getting new glasses. They are in process right now.

Kyle Khachadurian:
I’m getting it in the next month.

Emily Ladau:
Super pumped because, both of them, they’re cat eye-ish. Very girly.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You look great cat eyeglasses.

Emily Ladau:
I’m thrilled. I can’t wait. So-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah. I need new glasses. These ones are not good anymore. I can still see out of them. But, anyway.

Emily Ladau:
They work though. They do their job-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, they work. They work.

Emily Ladau:
… and they look lovely on you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Do you think the shape works? Yeah?

Emily Ladau:
I think it does. Yeah, I think it does. Everybody sitting here listening is like, “Stop talking about things that we can’t see.” So, I will audio describe accessibility. Kyle is wearing a pair of black rimmed glasses. I would say they’re flat on the top but they’re rounded on the bottom. Yeah. Are they plastic?

Kyle Khachadurian:
They are. They are.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah, I-

Kyle Khachadurian:
They’re Warby Parker and I have a huge stand for them because they’re cheap.

Emily Ladau:
Oh, Warby Parker is so cool. I’ve never tried them. Sponsor us Warby Parker.

Kyle Khachadurian:
No, honestly, if you can afford designer glasses and you want them, God bless you. But I have to re-up every year and so, I like cheap glasses and they’re a perfect middle ground between designer name brand glasses and Zenni. Not-

Emily Ladau:
It’s amazing-

Kyle Khachadurian:
… judging anyone who-

Emily Ladau:
… how much they charge for a pair of glasses just because someone’s name is on it. Are you kidding me?

Kyle Khachadurian:
I know. It’s-

Emily Ladau:
I hate that.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah, yeah.

Emily Ladau:
Infuriating. Wow. So, off topic. Anyway, internalized ableism, I have it, Kyle has it, we got it.

Kyle Khachadurian:
And I think it’s important to recognize that you, listening, probably have it, too. And don’t lie now.

Emily Ladau:
Ooh, whether-

Kyle Khachadurian:
And it’s okay.

Emily Ladau:
Whether or not you’re disabled, though. I think-

Kyle Khachadurian:
You probably also-

Emily Ladau:
… we all have-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
… internalized ableism.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Oh, [inaudible 00:37:44], Emily. That’s a really good point. I think, yeah, able bodied people probably have … They have a different sort of internalized ableism but if you are an able-bodied listener and you see someone in a wheelchair wheel into your place of work, that feeling that you have means that you have some kind of internalized ableism.

Emily Ladau:
Yeah. Possibly, you could be judging that person. So, we can work on those feelings but, more so, you could be like, “I don’t want that to be me.” Or you break your leg and it’s like, “Oh, my God. My life is over.”

Kyle Khachadurian:
Even if you’re super inspired by their existence, even if it’s a positive feeling, I would say it’s still ableism. Any different treatment because of a disability, even if it’s … Inspiration point is not positive. But even though it’s a positive rooted feeling, it’s still rooted in those bad ableism which is not good.

Emily Ladau:
But I’m saying turning inwards to yourself and being like, “Man, my knee hurts, my body is failing.” Or like, “I can’t wear a wrist brace because my wrist hurts because I don’t want people judging me for how I look.” Stuff like that. So, I think that we-

Kyle Khachadurian:
Yeah.

Emily Ladau:
… all just have these assumptions about what is and is not okay in terms of public facing acknowledgement or visibility for disability.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emily Ladau:
So, that’s my hot take is that we all have internalized ableism. And, on that note, should we come to some final takeaways?

Kyle Khachadurian:
My final takeaway is even though you’re listening to this, especially if you’re disabled, you probably know that you feel this way. Just know that we don’t think of you that way. I can’t speak for every other person. But internalized ableism is called internal for a reason. You’re probably the only person saying those things to yourself about yourself. Maybe, hopefully.

Emily Ladau:
I would say I think there are plenty of people who are ableists and who are going to judge you. But as hard as it is to grapple with that feeling that ableism is real and it exists and people direct it towards you, focus on working through it inside yourself because living with internalized ableism is hard. It’s hard and we shouldn’t have to. And, it’s okay to put yourself first and take care of yourself and deal with those emotions. And I know it’s a challenge when you’re constantly being confronted with different types of ableism, but don’t let yourself sit in those feelings too long because you’re worth so much more than that. Sorry, I just went all motivational speaker on you so-

Kyle Khachadurian:
You’re so inspiring.

Emily Ladau:
… I’m going to-

Kyle Khachadurian:
So inspiring.

Emily Ladau:
That’s all.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Very inspirational. No, I echo Emily’s sentiments 100%. She says everything better than I say them.

Emily Ladau:
I feel like I have internalized ableismed myself out. Have you?

Kyle Khachadurian:
Well, I don’t know. But I do know if you’d like to support the show, you can do so by going to patreon.com/theaccessiblestall. Just $1 a month ensures that we will not get yelled at by eggs on Twitter about not having transcripts on our episodes.

Emily Ladau:
But also, seriously, transcribe your podcast. Oh, my goodness, accessibility, please.

Kyle Khachadurian:
Hashtag accessibility, please. Hashtag accessibility, now. I don’t know why we’re asking. Thank you.

Emily Ladau:
Oh, yeah, we’re telling you. We’re not asking you, we’re telling you.

Kyle Khachadurian:
That please is sarcastic.

Emily Ladau:
May we say you look great today.

Kyle Khachadurian:
You do. You look so good.

Emily Ladau:
You’re beautiful. You’re not a burden.

Kyle Khachadurian:
But you might be a bird.

Emily Ladau:
What?

Kyle Khachadurian:
I don’t know. Probably not.

Emily Ladau:
Good night, everybody.

Kyle Khachadurian:
See you next time.

Emily Ladau:
Thanks for listening. Bye.