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The Accessible Stall

The Accessible Stall

A disability podcast with Kyle and Emily

Episode 79: An Evening With Ryan J. Haddad

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Emily:                                       Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle:                                         I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily:                                       You’re listening to one of our new favorite episodes of The Accessible Stall and we haven’t even recorded it.

Kyle:                                         How do you already know that, Emily?

Emily:                                       Because we officially have our coolest guest ever today.

Kyle:                                         Who could that be?

Emily:                                       Can you introduce yourself, Mystery Guest?

RH:                                           My name is Ryan J. Haddad.

Emily:                                       I’m so excited. Ryan is a big deal in case you don’t already know, really big deal. Anyway, he’s royalty, and we have him on our show and we’re pretty excited about it. We think you should all be excited about it, too. Ryan, can you tell us a little bit about who you are for the peasants at home who don’t know?

RH:                                           Oh my goodness. This is overwhelming. I love it though because I love both of you, but it’s overwhelming. I’m fine. I’m getting over it. Glamour. Glamour. I am an actor,  playwright, and autobiographical performer and up until very recently I was primarily known for my solo plays about myself.

                                                Now, I am also known as a recurring character on the new Netflix series, The Politician. I play the character of Andrew, who is known for his sardonic wit, his Hawaiian shirts that feature leopards, and his walker, frankly, let’s just be honest about that. Thank you. That’s who I am. I’m Ryan J. Haddad. I think I’m done introducing myself.

Kyle:                                         Awesome. It was perfect.

Emily:                                       That’s a perfect introduction.

Kyle:                                         Oh man.

RH:                                           I’m letting you guys host, so you tell– what do I say next?

Emily:                                       Yes, we got a whole list of questions for you. Don’t you worry.

RH:                                           My favorite flavor of popcorn, or like what?

Emily:                                       Actually, you know what? Tell us your favorite flavor of popcorn. That was–

RH:                                           There’s only one and it’s just standard popcorn with butter because if you… caramel corn, I can tolerate, but cheese popcorn, absolutely not; also, never kettle corn. I mean why on earth? It’s like hell. Why?

Emily:                                       Really?

Kyle:                                         I had no idea that there were people so passionate about popcorn.

RH:                                           It’s fake. Then people are holding a bucket of popcorn and like, “Do you want some?” and it is kettle corn, that’s a betrayal.

Emily:                                       I mean I have to say this is all actually very relevant because you eat popcorn while you’re watching movies. When you’re a movie star, you can tell people that they’re not allowed to eat kettle corn during a screening of your movie. That seems totally reasonable.

Kyle:                                         That’s true. Yes, it’s a good point.

RH:                                           I am not yet a movie star, maybe perhaps someday. Until then, I’m just here on this podcast telling people that kettle corn is forbidden.

Emily:                                       Fair. No kettle corn. We are not sponsored by the makers of kettle corn…

RH:                                           So true.

Emily:                                       … and now, we never will be. Thanks so much, Ryan.

RH:                                           You can always cut this out if you’re really wanting to butter up, but it’s not even butter because it’s kettle corn.

Emily:                                       Now, we can’t cut it. He made a popcorn joke.

Kyle:                                         Yes, we want to know. Can you tell us how you landed the role of Andrew in The Politician? Were they seeking someone disabled for that part, or did you just show up?

RH:                                           I did not just show up. They were actively seeking somebody specifically with cerebral palsy. The line, ”I have cerebral palsy and I like getting high” was in the audition side. They were very deliberate about their desire to be inclusive and to make a character that was going to wreak some havoc and stir some thoughts, but have this part of his identity which was… so specifically cerebral palsy.

                                                He had to be able to be believably high school which at the time, I was like, “Interesting. Okay,” but thrilled to do it, of course. I knew because Ben Platt was attached for years in advance of the audition. I knew that like, “Okay. If the people playing high school are in their… if they’re all their mid-20s, it sort of equals this all out.”

                                                I just sent in the tape. I was actually working on a… developing a new play that I had written at Berkeley Repertory Theatre and they asked me to come in New York and I was in Berkeley so I just sent in a tape. It was two scenes and then I didn’t hear anything for a while and then I heard that I probably got it. They couldn’t officially say, but I probably got it.

                                                The first actual, real notification which I was surprised that this is how I found out was that Ben Platt had put many of the regular cast members into… regular and recurring cast members into an Instagram thread. It said like, “Welcome to the show. I’m so excited for what we’re going to make.” I was like, “Oh, I guess I got… I guess it’s real I guess.”

Kyle:                                         That’s awesome.

RH:                                           Yes, it was really fun. Then I had to call some people and be like, “I need to know for su–” This is real. I screamed and shouted and it was like, “This is real.” Then I had to do some business stuff after that. After the euphoria of this message from the fairy god person that was Ben Platt, I was like, “Okay. Now, I actually need to make sure I’m hired.”

Kyle:                                         Right.

Emily:                                       Right, like, “Is this an April Fool’s joke, or are we actually doing this?”

Kyle:                                         Yes.

RH:                                           Right, but it all worked out and we filmed in December and Fall of 2018.

Kyle:                                         That’s awesome. I can’t even imagine that feeling. Did you have any input in how Andrew would be developed in terms of a character?

RH:                                           Not actually with the writing but when I was cast they first… at first, the breakdown said he was a sophomore and that he was 16. Then the audition scene came through and it was implied that he was going to college. I was like, “Okay, so maybe they have bumped him up.”

                                                By the time I was cast, he was rebuilt as a high school senior. Also, I guess in terms of the writing, no, I didn’t have creative input but they did say like, “We want you to use the mobility device that you’re most comfortable with,” which I thought was really great.

Kyle:                                         That is cool.

RH:                                           He had been written to use the scooter. Frankly, if they had asked me to use a scooter, on day one they would learn very quickly that I don’t know how to drive, no matter what kind of device it is.  So it was very generous of them to be able to just right off the bat, they said, “You can use your walker. No problem at all.” I guess those would be the two things that they aged him up slightly to match my real age, or match what could believably be my age; and then they changed him from a motorized scooter to a walker.

Emily:                                       I mean–

Kyle:                                         That’s really cool to me.

Emily:                                       The walker thing is a big deal though because I don’t know about you, but when I see people who don’t have command of a certain piece of mobility equipment using it in a role, I can very clearly tell.

RH:                                           Sure. I’m not sure how familiar you are with my resume but my very first television credit, which was absolutely zero lines of dialogue at all, but I was next to Jeff Goldblum for about 15 seconds.

Emily:                                       Excuse me while I fan myself.

Kyle:                                         That’s so cool.

RH:                                           It was Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. It was very deliberately a motorized scooter. I don’t know if I like lied and said that I could, but I definitely was bumping into furniture on that set. The take that made it in, I looked like I have some command of it, but anyone who was actually watching me that day was like, “This person has never operated machinery in his life.”

Emily:                                       This is a lie.

RH:                                           Why on earth? Anyway, that was Thomas Fletching and his syndrome with a disease so rare that they made it after him. I just thought it was a writing choice that Thomas could not speak and so I had no line, but it was fun. Jeff Goldblum said that we looked alike. He said it, not I, which was a very big a surprise to me because I think that he is one of the sexiest people on earth.

                                                By extension then, I will extend that complement to our friend Kyle here because Kyle and I have often said that we look like twins.

Kyle:                                         We are though.

RH:                                           So if Jeff Goldblum says that I look like him, by extension, you also look like Jeff Goldblum. I think that we should just play his sons in a movie sometime.

Kyle:                                         I couldn’t agree more. Every word of that sentence made it better and I love it so much.

RH:                                           I’ve tried to talk to you about playing me in the future and you’ve said that you’re not an actor, but we can work on that, I’m telling you.

Kyle:                                         You know what? I think it’s time for a career change, Emily.

Emily:                                       I mean if you have a voice for a podcast, maybe it’s time to see if you have a face for the screen.

Kyle:                                         It’s funny bec–

RH:                                           He definitely does.

Kyle:                                         It’s funny, Ryan, you posted a before and after, I mean in Netflix did and you just shared it, but–

RH:                                           Netflix did it and I started crying. I was like, “Netflix can… what are you doing to me?  Making me emotional.”

Kyle:                                         That before picture could have been me. It was ridiculous, I showed my parents. It’s like, “Look at this kid, he looks just like me.”

RH:                                           …You know what? When I was little, I used to have a theater company called the Haddad Theatre. By that I mean I just made my parents and family put on place in the living room and backyard. There was a time when I really believed for several months in kindergarten that we were going to do The Parent Trap, a live version of The Parent Trap.

Kyle:                                         Oh my god.

RH:                                           That was difficult because I’m not a twin so how do you do that if it’s like…? Oh, that would imply that the gender would have changed. I think I really was like… I was buddies with this little blonde boy in kindergarten and I thought that we could conceivably be twins, me and this little blonde boy.

                                                But if only I had known that there was a Kyle out there who looked exactly like me, we could have done The Parent Trap live from the backyard of the Haddad family in Parma, Ohio.

Kyle:                                         I feel like we could still do that, maybe not necessarily from your backyard.

Emily:                                       Can you please sign me up? Because first of all, the Lindsay Lohan version of The Parent Trap is the actual best movie ever made.

RH:                                           It was the definition of our childhood. I watched it on a daily basis.

Emily:                                       I love that movie and– [0:13:11 crosstalk]. Oh my god.

RH:                                           Now, who would you play, Emily? Would you play Chessy?

Emily:                                       Yes, I like Chessy because she’s sassy, and I don’t think I could play the mom. She’s a little bit too–

RH:                                           Not opposite. No, not opposite. Not opposite me and Kyle, you could not play the mom.

Emily:                                       Yes, I can be Chessy. I could be one of the angry camp counselors.

RH:                                           You know what? I wasn’t going to reduce you to a day-play role. I wasn’t going to do that.

Emily:                                       Thank you.

RH:                                           I wanted you to have a nice salary.

Emily:                                       Alternatively, can I just direct this or produce this?

RH:                                           I look forward to that. I mean I think we couldn’t be in better hands.

Emily:                                       I’m delighted. Also, love The Parent Trap, love you two. This is great. Let’s make some dreams come true right now. You heard it here first.

RH:                                           Of course, you had to watched the Hayley Mills’ version, from the ’60s?

Emily:                                       Of course, the original?

RH:                                           Yes.

Emily:                                       Yes, but–

RH:                                           But you watched Lindsay first because we were young.

Emily:                                       Yes, and also because I’m a cultural failure and think that the Lindsay Lohan version is way better than the original.

RH:                                           I didn’t say… I don’t have an opinion. I don’t think that’s a cultural failure. I think that’s a very… for instance, I think that Sister Act 2 is supremely better than Sister Act 1.

Emily:                                       That’s saying something because a lot of sequels aren’t that great. I have not seen Sister Act 2, so I can’t speak for this.

RH:                                           Oh my gosh. Many people would tell you that I’m dead wrong, but I was raised on the Sister Act 2. Before The Parent Trap came out, the movie that I watched every day was Sister Act 2. I hope to sort of become famous enough in a short enough period of time that Whoopi Goldberg will still be appearing on The View and I can go on to The View and then just cry at her face.

Emily:                                       I’m going to do–

RH:                                           You had questions, didn’t you?

Emily:                                       I’m going to do my best to somehow bring this all around from production of The Parent Trap in your backyard to crying in front of Whoopi Goldberg.   So…

RH:                                           Gorgeous.

Emily:                                       I think that actually is a good segue into the question that I was going to ask because you played the role of Andrew in The Politician. That role was a disabled character, but it seems like in your early acting career trying to put together a live-action version of The Parent Trap… or not live action, but a live theatrical performance of The Parent Trap that you were clearly unconcerned with whether or not the twins actually had disabilities or not. My question–

RH:                                           In our version of The Parent Trap, you know what I mean? When I was–

Emily:                                       I mean they’re definitely going to be disabled in this new version that we’re doing with you and me and Kyle.

RH:                                           For sure. I was, you’re right. [0:16:32 I’m in a good position].

Emily:                                       Would you rather be known as a disabled actor or just an actor?

RH:                                           No, I’m an actor. That’s it. I’m an actor, but it’s not that I’m ashamed if somebody calls me a disabled actor.  That’s also a true statement, it’s literally a fact. I’m a disabled actor, but I would like to be known as an actor and a playwright and a solo performer. A lot of my solo work talks about disability. Some shows primarily are about disabilities, some shows are not.

                                                There’s a play of mine that I’ve written that doesn’t… that is actually the thing I was at Berkeley Repertory Theatre working on. That’s about my gay uncle and my family and so it’s six actors plus me. That play has nothing to do with the disability at all. In that the character of Ryan… autobiographically of the character Ryan is just a member of the family and he is disabled, the walker’s there.

                                                But I actually believe …I’m not good at sound bites so forgive me for this. No matter what character I play ever, unless I’m sitting behind a desk, right, and you can’t see any kind of mobility difference, the character becomes disabled. It doesn’t matter if I’m in a revival of a play or a revival of a musical, or it’s a character in a film or TV show that wasn’t written to be disabled.  If Andrew, in fact, had not been written to be disabled in The Politician and I played him, then therefore he would have become disabled because you can’t un-see it. There it is.

Kyle:                                         Right.

RH:                                           There are people with invisible disabilities that the line is different and that it’s not a such hard like, “And yes, this character is now disabled.”   But in my case, it’s there. So I am an actor. I’m a disabled actor. I wouldn’t necessarily want to… I do not, in fact, when I was recently searching for acting representation, I do not…

                                                I told everyone that I spoke to and ultimately the one that I chose, who I adore, I said, “I do not want to only be considered for parts that were written to be disabled. I should be considered for every single, funny, gay character in their mid-20s, every single one.” Why on earth am I not being considered…?

Kyle:                                         And you should play every single one, too,  as  far as I’m concerned.

RH:                                           No. I mean there’s a big pool. Right, but I would at least like to be able to read the scene. I’d like to be able to go to the audition room, do my two minutes. Thank you. Goodbye. Right? That’s not always an opportunity that is afforded to actors who are disabled.

                                                But I do believe that if I booked one of those roles, the character would, by extension, even if it’s never talked about, if I’m standing there with a walker, he’s disabled. There it is. Does that answer the question?

Emily:                                       Yes, it totally does.

Kyle:                                         It sure does.

Emily:                                       The reason that I was really curious about it is because something that I’ve noticed as someone who very involved in the disability activism world and also as someone who has done some coverage of actors who identify as disabled, I’ve noticed that there still tends to be this pigeonholing of actors who have disabilities where they’re known as “the disabled actor.” So I was just curious to know how you perceived that and how you identify yourself. I think that you definitely covered that.

RH:                                           Yes. I don’t have more to say.

Kyle:                                         That was a perfect segue into my next question which was, have you ever actively experienced discrimination in your pursuits of finding acting jobs because of your disability? If yes, can you please tell us about it?

RH:                                           Interesting.

Kyle:                                         I mean I guess it’s one of those things were you don’t know but you know.

RH:                                           Sure.

Kyle:                                         Have you ever felt like you have?

RH:                                           Not in a professional setting.

Kyle:                                         Really? 

RH:                                           No, not professionally but I’ve only been acting professionally for four years. I graduated from undergrad in Central Ohio in May of 2015.  So I’ve been a professional actor for four years and I have, primarily, not all the time, but primarily was creating my own work as I said. I’m a writer/performer, so I’m primarily creating my own work.

                                                When I have gone into an audition setting, a lot of times it’s because they’re looking for disabled people, sometimes not, but never have I felt, “Oh, I didn’t get something because of…” or no, not professionally. But I will say that I mean it certainly happened when I was young. Again, as you said, you don’t know but you know, right?

Kyle:                                         Right.

RH:                                           There were roles that I wanted that I probably would have been great for, but I was often given roles… as a teenager, I’m playing the grandfather, or I’m playing the older uncle, or I’m playing the father. There’s something in which the walker makes sense. Actually, my first Youth Theater… no, I don’t know, qualify time because I started acting with people my own age at the age of seven, right?

                                                I went into auditions and often when I didn’t get a part I would be struck with, did I not get the part because I wasn’t right for it, or did I not get the part that I… because of the disability? Did I get this other part instead if I did get cast? Did I get this other part instead because of the walker?

                                                Was I not seen for the lead role because I was better as a comedian actor with a supporting role, or is it because I had a walker and they didn’t know what to do with the walker?

I just touched the walker if you heard a note. So those kinds of questions, which started in my early to mid-teens and went all the way through high school and sometimes even in to college, those sort of if a particular director I wasn’t sure about, or were they sure about me and my abilities as an actor or otherwise?  I was always second-guessing and I was unsure.

When I arrived at Ohio Wesleyan University, which is the college that I went to,  I remember telling them in my theatre, I’ll never forget, that I was going to be a playwright and director because I didn’t think based on what I had experienced in high school in Youth Theater.

                                                I had some wonderful experiences with some wonderful people, wonderful directors, but there were other experiences and other times when I was like, “Hmm, interesting.” I realized, “Oh, I’m probably not going to be able to make it as an actor who looks the way I do, or has the mobility difference that I have.”

Also, we weren’t seeing it on the TV at that time.  What we were seeing, we were seeing Glee in which the character of Artie was played by a non-disabled actor. We were seeing other iterations of that same kind of thing, and so  I just said like, “I’m going to be a playwright and a director. I’m going to be behind the scenes, and maybe I’ll write some stuff for people who are disabled,” but I didn’t think I was going to be writing for myself. I didn’t think it was going to be solo work. I didn’t know what the heck solo work was. I was just like, “That’s weird performance arc.”

But I was writing in the English department. I was a double major in creative writing and theater. I was writing personal essays, freshman and sophomore year, and I was starting to write short plays, which were fake fiction. They were not fictionalized plays at all, but I would like to give people different names, but it would really be me, or it would be a version of me in a made up circumstance, or it would be two family members of mine in a made circumstance without me being the character. Those are the kinds of plays that I was writing, but they were not very good. They were not very good plays.

                                                Then my mentor in solo performance, Tim Miller, came from Los Angeles for a week-long workshop. He sprinkled his magic fairy dust. He said, “You, in fact, can be doing these personal essays on the stage as solo plays or performances.”

Suddenly, it all clicked because I’m a very skilled performer. I’m a very talented performer because of timing, because of comedy because of wit, because of the way that I know how to…

                                                As Hannah Gadsby… we all adore Hannah Gadsby, bow down to Hannah Gadsby, says, “Very frankly, I know how to manipulate an audience.”   And that is what you’re doing when you’re standing there by yourself. You’re manipulating them to feel a certain way at a certain time and then suddenly, yanking them a different way and now making them something else.

                                                I realized that overtime, it wasn’t instantaneous like “This is what I should be doing;” but I realized overtime that that was where I really excelled as a performer and also as a writer. Some of my best writing is autobiographical monologue. I’m very proud of this new play that is about my family that has other people in it. I knew this is what I do well and so that is what I’m going to keep doing.

                                                I believe that the reason I have subsequently booked other work professionally that I didn’t write or create is because someone somewhere, whether it was a casting director, or a fellow actor who then recommended me to a casting director, or it was a director, it’s because people have seen my work on the stage. So I’m hoping to now be at the nexus where my writing, my autobiographical writing, it’s not all solo I’d say, my autobiographical writing is going to get me more acting work in theater, film, and television and then also… and this is a particularly new phenomenon that my work on television in The Politician specifically is getting theaters who were not necessarily interested in producing my plays last season or the season before suddenly now are like, “Oh, hmm!  We would like to consider that play that you’ve sent us four times.”

                                                I’m happy to write that way and use that new notoriety even though the plays are the same as they were, right, to get my work seen for–

Emily:                                       I’d  ride the hell out of that wave just… yes.

Kyle:                                         Yes, do it.

Emily:                                       I have a question for you as someone who has already said that you want to very much straightforwardly be called not just “the disabled actor” but “an actor.” Although, you will obviously acknowledge that disability is part of who you are and that calling yourself a disabled actor is definitely an accurate statement, but what is your take on the big controversy around whether only disabled people should play disabled characters?

                                                Because, for example, you mentioned Artie from Glee before and on the one hand, I remember being excited to see Artie on Glee  because, “Oh, there’s a wheelchair user as a character.”   But on the other hand I was super frustrated when I learned early on that… I think it’s Kevin McHale wasn’t a wheelchair user in real life and so I was frustrated by that.

                                                I know that it’s maybe a bit challenging to talk about because you have the obvious bias of being someone who’s disabled and also an actor, but I’m very interested to hear your take on the controversy.

RH:                                           Right. I mean I don’t understand why it’s a controversy in this time. In the year 2019, it should not be a controversy, no one should… they just shouldn’t. Disabled characters should not be played by non-disabled actors today. Because today there are disabled actors who are not getting work and who are not being considered for other opportunities; and so it should… you are correct that it is complicated.

                                                Let me go back in time because first of all, let’s praise Ryan Murphy and Ryan Murphy Productions because look at where we are now versus where we were. They’ve written a character with cerebral palsy and said, “We only want to see people with cerebral palsy,” and I got the part because of that active, deliberate… what word am I … It was a deliberate effort that they made to be inclusive in the right way. That was also Glee, ten years ago was a Ryan Murphy show. It was.

Emily:                                       Yes.

RH:                                           I loved it and I went to all the concerts. I went to the live concerts and I was absolutely, literally obsessed with it. I also, because I wasn’t yet a professional actor, was not as in tune with the idea that this was not correct that the character of Artie should have been played by a disabled actor. I didn’t really register that.   So I was also, like you, Emily, thrilled to see a wheelchair user on television. The moment that I became upset was the first time that he, in a dream sequence, got out of his chair…

Emily:                                       Was that The Safety Dance?

RH:                                           I don’t remember what song it was, or what–

Emily:                                       I actually remember pretty clearly when he got up and started dancing because I was also upset at that exact moment.

Kyle:                                         Oh my god.

RH:                                           I was completely enraged, but I had not previously been enraged. Prior to that, I was like, “How fabulous, look at him. Love this actor. Love his character. Love the story. Wonderful. Yes, we exist in high school. Hooray!” and then I became enraged when he stood up out of his chair in a dream sequence because I don’t know about the two of you, and frankly, whenever I’ve mentioned this anecdote in… it’s not often and I’m very grateful I want to say, to be a guest on a podcast with two disabled individuals because I can now actually ask you this question. I don’t dream of not being disa– like when I go to sleep and I dream or I’m daydreaming, I do magically not have a walker, I suddenly, I’m not disabled.

                                                It’s like, “To me, that’s completely absurd because that what I…” Literally, when I’ve known every single day of my life since I had consciousness. You know what I mean?

Kyle:                                         Yes.

RH:                                           I recognize that there are people in certain parts of the country who are raised by certain types of parents who, for better or worse, wish that they were not disabled, pity themselves, are pitied by other people or the people who love them, people around them. That exists in America today and the world today, so it is possible that there are individuals who are in wheelchairs who would dream of being out of them and doing a dance number, but that was just never me.

                                                If I was going to do a dance number in a musical, and you know that I have dreamed up many of them, the walker was always going to be at the center of it. It was going to be a big moment. There would be a kick line and I wouldn’t be kicking in the kick line, or I’d be doing something fabulous where they would lift me in the air and I’d have all this wonderfully…

                                                That’s what I dream about, but it’s not to erase me and the part of my identity. I’m curious, have you fantasized about not being disabled?

Emily:                                       Never. Oh my god. Kyle and I have–

Kyle:                                         No.

Emily:                                       — I’m sorry. I just realized I’m about to speak for you, but I think you’ll–

Kyle:                                         No.

Emily:                                       — agree.

Kyle:                                         Go ahead. I’ll say my piece.

Emily:                                       It would be super great if we could take a pill that would cure the pain, the daily chronic pain that comes with being disabled, but never actually curing ourselves. I personally cannot imagine any part of my life without my wheelchair. It’s funny because in the very few dreams that I’ve had where I’m not in my wheelchair for whatever reason and have somehow been walking, my feet are heavy like giant bags of sand are attached to them and I can barely move them.

                                                I feel like that must be my unconscious mind being like, “Are you kidding me? This is not realistic. Stop that.”

So yes, I have no fantasies of not a wheelchair-using Emily; just fantasies of maybe people not being such jerks about it.

RH:                                           That’s not us.

Emily:                                       Yes, that’s not us at all.

RH:                                           That’s the world.

Kyle:                                         In my dreams I’m constantly doing things that I can’t do, like I’m riding a bike, but in my dream, I know that this isn’t right. You know what I mean? How am I doing this? Because I’m definitely still disabled in my dream, but as far as fantasies of being non-disabled, I don’t know. Sometimes I wake up and I’m like, “This sucks,” but then I’m like, “Not really. I’m good.”

RH:                                           What I will say is that I don’t publicly not use my walker a lot, but I am able to walk without the walker, like in my own apartment. When I become very comfortable in a space, I’m able to park the walker somewhere and just walk around and I hold on to things for support. But there are these moments when I catch myself in a mirror when I don’t have the walker and I don’t look the way that I think I look in my brain.

                                                I always think in my brain that I look straighter than I actually am. There was even a caricature done very recently of me, I did a reprogram, it’s at Joe’s Pub. But it’s a caricature and so things are exaggerated in the caricature, but in the caricature Ryan, his legs are not straight and that is fascinating to me. If I were to look at a photo of me in the same set, I know that would be true and that the artist was just drawing accurately.

                                                I love the image that was created. I mean I was thrilled, but it’s very interesting to see my knee not… I don’t know, it’s at an angle. It’s very interesting for me to see that in a drawing because that is what the world sees. Sometimes in my brain I trick myself into thinking that I look more suave and steady than I actually–

Kyle:                                         I do that all the time. When I say I don’t see myself as disabled, I mean that very literally. When I see myself on camera or a picture of myself, I’m like, “Who the hell is that?” I have that exact same thing going on with me.

Emily:                                       I definitely have these moments where… so, I have contractures in both of my arms so they don’t straighten past 90 degrees at the elbow. For me, it’s just natural. I make a weird movement when I’m reaching for something across the table because I can’t extend my arm all the way, so my elbow goes up in the air.

                                                Sometimes if I can see myself or a reflection while I’m doing it, I’m like, “That looks so weird.” It’s just a very, very strange thing to see yourself reflecting back at yourself like that. I guess that’s why having non-disabled people play disabled people has always been such a challenge for me because there are just certain mannerisms that, for the most part, you can’t master if that’s not your everyday life.

RH:                                           Because I’m also not thinking about it now.

Emily:                                       Right, you don’t have to think about it, it’s just when you are.

Kyle:                                         Yes, that’s the big thing.

RH:                                           It’s just like, “Oh, I did that with my hands? Interesting. Okay.”

Also, in the caricature my hands are waving. I talk with my hands all the time. My family always does, that’s just our family. We’re Lebanese American family. We’re always like gesture, gesture, gesture.  My gestures just look different than other people’s gestures, but that’s…

                                                Anyway, I think it’s a very poor taste these days in 2019 to cast a non-disabled actor in a disabled role. I just think it completely is. People are still doing it. Hollywood is still doing it. Theater is still doing it.

Emily:                                       All the time.

RH:                                           All the time. When I see it, especially on the stage, because I’m pretty in touch with the New York theater community, just the idea of like, “Was a disabled actor ever considered for that part that is disabled?”

Maybe they don’t say the word, but that is the truth of the character. “Why? It wasn’t? Interesting. Hmm.”

                                                That makes me… yes, especially in theater where I feel like they should know better than Hollywood. They do not have the problem of, “We need to sell tickets,” that Hollywood necessarily has.

Emily:                                       Although there is the problem of lack of accessible theaters. I think that because theaters are so old… I’m not an actor, but I have heard that there’s issues with a lot of older theaters not even having accessible backstage areas.

RH:                                           You’re not wrong. It’s correct.

Emily:                                       I don’t think it’s an excuse. I think it’s an excuse that you would be given, but I mean we’re all about authenticity here so we’re going to keep promoting the people who are keeping it real and doing it right.

RH:                                           Absolutely.

Kyle:                                         Speaking of promoting, since we’re about to wind down, do you mind just promoting yourself. Just go all out man.

RH:                                           I’m ready to do that. I remember when I talked to you about the little theater company that almost did  The Parent Trap but then didn’t.

Kyle:                                         Yes.

RH:                                           That was called the Haddad Theater. I have created a solo show. It’s not a solo play, it’s a cabaret about that called Falling For Make-Believe, and it is going to be Under the Radar Festival at the Public Theater in Joe’s Pub for four performances, January 8th, 12th, 16th, and 17th, 2020. I hope that you all come.

                                                Disability is not a primary focus, but there is certainly a moment. There is a scene in which disability is a theater artist is called into question for me at a young age. It’s a very lighthearted show that is very funny, filled with show tunes, all show tunes, and it will make you cry at the end because that’s just what I do.

                                                I know how manipulate an audience, but it’s a tribute to my family because it’s not that they just put on plays in the backyard for a few minutes, no. They did it from the time I was five until the time I was 13. That’s eight years, and we did ten shows in eight years. The final four were literally on a literal stage of our community center. People would come and they’d pay a dollar and they would see us put on the plays.

Emily:                                       Oh my god.

RH:                                           This is sort of my–

Emily:                                       What?

RH:                                           Yes.

Kyle:                                         Your family is amazing.

RH:                                           They’re extraordinary. Just some highlights. In 1998 we did a backyard version of Brandon’s Cinderella–

Emily:                                       Stop it.

RH:                                           — with no songs except for the song Falling In Love With Love, which is not even from Cinderella. They’ve put it into the movie. That is why the cabaret is called Falling For Make-Believe from that song, that Rodgers and Hart’s song. I played the prince opposite my 48 year old lesbian aunt at the time, Cinderella, which is just perfect casting I found.

                                                Then later in time, our final two shows when I was 13, both of them, I wasn’t out as a gay person yet, but I might as well have been because we did an adaptation of All About Eve called All About Ed in which I played the title role.  We did an adaptation of Annie called Andy  in which I played the title role.

Kyle:                                         Oh my god.

RH:                                           There are kinds of stories from this eight-year period, this 10-show period and I conjure all of these wonderful, zany, wacky family members who not only said like, “We’ll do it once,” but they literally did it 10 times. None of them had any ambition or interest in being performers, but they knew that I needed some outlet and that they could provide it for me in this way; and they did it.

                                                These are memories that have lasted certainly my whole life, but for many of them they’ve also been memories that we talk about. When family members are older and not as healthy as they used to be, we sit down and when we’re talking about the past those plays always come up. I used to think they were only memories that belong to me, but I realized now that they belong to the whole family.

                                                This is my gift to them and it’s very enjoyable. We did it for one performance at Joe’s Pub last year and within a week, I had the offer to do Under the Radar because it was such a big success. Even the waiters and waitresses, the servers were crying, I’m told.

So I hope everyone will come. Tickets are somewhat affordable. There is a small food and beverage minimum at Joe’s Pub, but it is certainly one of the more affordable cabaret venues in the city. It is part of Under the Radar at the Public Theater, January 8th, 12th, 16th, and 17th, Falling for Make-Believe. I have to sell 180 seats four times, so please come.

Emily:                                       Well Kyle and I will buy two tickets.

Kyle:                                         We will definitely help.

Emily:                                       We’re going to be there 100%. I’m bringing my boyfriend. You should probably tell your girlfriend to fly in.

Kyle:                                         She’s– [0:46:43 crosstalk] fly in all the way just to see.

RH:                                           No, she doesn’t have to fly in for this. Oh gosh no, please don’t do that. If she flies in it should be for you and only you. I also wanted to say every time I see fellow disabled friends who are couples, it gives me, a perpetually single person, great hope in the world for… and especially long, very long term relationships because I know… I don’t know, Kyle, how long you’ve been together but I know that Emily, it’s been a long time, right?

Emily:                                       It has.

RH:                                           That just makes me feel like he’s out there and I’ll find him sometime.

Emily:                                       We can totally make this a personal ad for you–

Kyle:                                         He is out there.

Emily:                                       — right now.

Kyle:                                         He is.

RH:                                           I mean I–

Kyle:                                         Yes, I mean just link this in your bios.

RH:                                           Sure. Everywhere you look, everywhere, that was almost quoting full house. I’m not going to finish…

Emily:                                       How could you not want to date Ryan everybody?

RH:                                           No, I just want to know–

Emily:                                       Unintentionally quote– [0:48:04 crosstalk].

RH:                                           I don’t know. It’s not like, “Dear God…” I’m not trying to inspiration for my friends because that’s not it, but as a disabled person to see you both in happy, committed relationships that have gone on for a while with beautiful people makes me very happy. I look forward to joining the club whenever I get admitted to the club.

Emily:                                       Everyone do me a favor and marry Ryan please. I would if I was a man and also gay.

Kyle:                                         Yes, line up. I would if I were single and also gay. If we could do it, so can you, other people listening to this.  

RH:                                           Thank you and good night. No. My plug was longer than the whole podcast.

Emily:                                       No, it’s fine.

RH:                                           All right.

Emily:                                       We had such a good time having you on. It’s funny, we usually, at the end of our episode, do a final takeaway but it’s hard to even pick one thing. I mean if you could say one thing to our listeners that you want them to take away from this, what would it be? Not pressure or anything.

RH:                                           From this 50 minutes that we just did?

Emily:                                       Yes. We always like to have a “too long, don’t read” even though it’s at the end then you have to listen to the whole thing before you get it.

RH:                                           Right. Takeaway would be coming to theatres soon, produced by Emily starring Kyle and Ryan, The Parent Trap another remake for this new generation of folks, and also the butter popcorn is the only popcorn. Thank you.

Emily:                                       Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Kyle:                                         I don’t even have a final takeaway except for, “Everyone, go follow Ryan.”

Emily:                                       Wait, no. Where can we follow you?

Kyle:                                         He is the best.

RH:                                           Thank you.

Emily:                                       You guys, all the social medias.

RH:                                           Thank you. Instagram, @ryanjhaddad, at R-Y-A-N-J-H-A, D as in dog, D as in dog, A as in apple, D as in dog.

Emily:                                       We enjoyed that.

RH:                                           I worked in a customer service job for a long time. When I had to give people my email over the phone, you know that’s how I did it. @ryanjhaddad on Instagram and Twitter. I don’t have a public Facebook page yet. You can follow me on my personal Facebook page, but I don’t post everything to be visible to followers on Facebook.

                                                If we’ve never met before and we have too many degrees of separation, I’m not going to accept your friend request on Facebook. It’s just I can’t do that. I love you all and thank you for listening, but I do encourage you to go follow me on Instagram and Twitter, especially Twitter because it’s really hard to get followers on Twitter. I don’t know what to do when I need to do to be a more popular tweeter.

Emily:                                       I have the opposite problem. I can’t grow my followers on Instagram, but Twitter I seemed to have figured it out. Maybe we need to exchange strategies here.

RH:                                           Sounds amazing. I look forward to our strategies. Actually, I wonder if we will record that for a future episode?

Emily:                                       Perhaps we will.

RH:                                           How to be a beautiful business disabled …

Kyle:                                         A beautiful business disable  [0:51:53 inaudible].I’ll also incorporate it.  Ryan, thank you so much for your time–

Emily:                                       We had the best time. This was fabulous

Kyle:                                         We appreciate it so, so much.  

RH:                                           As you know, I’m not bad at talking. My last request is going to be we need to meet in real life.

Emily:                                       Oh my god, yes.

RH:                                           Necessary…

Kyle:                                         Yes.

RH:                                           …and proper.

Emily:                                       We’re going to do that ASAP if you’re not too famous to hang out with us.

RH:                                           I’m not. I’m begging to hang out with you. I’m begging.

Emily:                                       When we plan, everyone will be jealous.

Kyle:                                         We’ll make that happen.

RH:                                           Yes, it will. We will put it on Insta–

Kyle:                                         It’ll get you a whole ton of Twitter followers.

RH:                                           We’re just going to put it on platforms, across all platforms.

Emily:                                       We’re only hanging out for the followers.

Kyle:                                         Hell yes.

RH:                                           I’m hanging out for the hugs.

Emily:                                       We think you’re great.

Kyle:                                         You are so wholesome.

RH:                                           Wholesome? You have not seen my work. If you think–

Kyle:                                         I’m talking strictly about this, right here.

Emily:                                       These 50 minutes. We look forward to seeing non-wholesome Ryan very soon.

RH:                                           Okay.  Under the Radar Ryan in January is wholesome Ryan. There is nothing non-wholesome in that show, but it’s because it’s a gift to all the family members.

Kyle:                                         That’s fair enough.

RH:                                           I didn’t want to hurt them by talking about nudity, but I do that in plenty of other works.

Emily:                                       You’re fabulous.

RH:                                           Love to both of you so much.

Emily:                                       Thank you for being on the show. On that note, we’re going to say, thanks for listening everyone.

Kyle:                                         Might we say, “You look great today.”

Emily:                                       Bye.

Kyle:                                         Thanks for listening.

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Episode 78: Cannabis with Kings Floyd

Emily:                                       The transcript for this episode is sponsored by SeamlessDocs. SeamlessDocs logo

Kyle:                                         SeamlessDocs is an eSignature and form automation platform that enables governments to go paperless and deliver better online services to citizens and staff.

Emily:                                       Hi. I’m Emily Ladau. 

Kyle:                                         I’m Kyle Khachadurian. 

Emily:                                       You’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle:                                         What are we going to talk about today, Emily? 

Emily:                                       We’re going to talk about cannabis.

Kyle:                                         What? 

Emily:                                       Yes. Actually we’re not going to talk about cannabis just by ourselves because between the two of us, I think we could fit what we know into a thimble, but we have one of my favorite humans in the literal world. Cannabis connoisseur, Kings Floyd here today. Kings, would you like to share more about yourself?

Kings:                                       Thank you, Emily. Thank you, Kyle, for bringing me up the podcast. Hi, this is Kings Floyd. I am a cannabis researcher and disability advocate. I’m here to talk about Mary Jane. 

Emily:                                       Yes, okay. I feel like a fun drinking game that people at home can play, not that I encourage drinking – I highly recommend doing this with apple juice – is, how many different ways can we refer to marijuana on this podcast? 

Kings:                                       Challenge accepted.

Emily:                                       I feel like I’m going to learn some new ones tonight. 

Kings:                                       I don’t know. I’m really the background just to make sure I can keep up. 

Emily:                                       Mary Jane is all I’ve got. We’re going to talk about the Mary Jane, the marijuana, the cannabis, the good stuff. 

Kings:                                       The graph. 

Emily:                                       That was an obvious one. 

Kings:                                       All right. 

Emily:                                       All right. Now that everyone’s really good and drunk on their apple juice, feeling really great about this, can you tell us a little bit about how you ended up becoming a cannabis researcher and, I would say, advocate?

Kings:                                       For those who don’t know me, I’ve been involved in the disco, or disability community, for all of my life, but professionally about seven or eight years. In the last year and a half, my muscular dystrophy got to a point where the scoliosis was becoming really painful on my back. 

                                                My doctors were trying all of these different medications, and I would say medications intentionally, to try and alleviate that pain and that stress. I was going through a lot of opioids specifically that were super high intensity that depleted my cognitive ability that wouldn’t allow me to engage in regular social life. 

                                                When I got a medical marijuana prescription, it really changed the way I looked at pain. It allowed me to develop my toolkit and tolerance levels for dealing with every day pain in a much more reasonable, accommodating way. 

Emily:                                       I feel like we need to highlight the fact that you’re specifically a user of cannabis for its pain relieving purposes. 

Kings:                                       Not just as pain relieving purposes. That was when I started into it, but it’s actually an appetite increaser for those who’ve also got muscular disabilities. Keeping up our weight is really important. Being hungry at the right time is not something I’m always good at. It’s a nausea suppressant if you have a stomach bug. 

                                                It’s a muscle spasm reducer, so for someone with muscle spasms and actually epilepsy as well, which I also have, check. It’s a drug that treats a lot of different results of symptoms of chronic disabilities. 

Emily:                                       I think that’s really important to highlight. There are actual values to cannabis use and not just for fun. I feel like there is a lot of stigma around that, but we’re probably going to buy into the stigma for a second or play into it because I know Kyle has a very important question for you. 

Kyle:                                         Absolutely. I would love to know what your favorite munchies food is. 

Kings:                                       I am always a sucker for [0:04:09 gold] fish, stoned or otherwise.

Kyle:                                         Me too. 

Kings:                                       I am a baked cheese and crackers fan even though I’m lactose intolerant. Love is pain. I would say the ultimate go-to for me is a pico de gallo chips and salsa. That is what it comes down to a guac and talk, as my friend Carly would say, of just chips and guacamole and pico de gallo or salsa, that’s where home base is. 

Emily:                                       Excellent choices. I mean–

Kyle:                                         Awesome.

Emily:                                       — you said appetite increaser, so I felt like it was only reasonable for Kyle to ask that very important question. 

Kings:                                       It is. Everyone’s going to have their preference. Obviously, everything is in moderation, too, because the munchies don’t always necessarily mean you’re being mindful about eating, which is still really important to do when you’re smoking or using cannabis, but it’s also a great tool to be able to eat properly and stay healthy.

Emily:                                       Can we talk a little bit about cannabis in terms of a 101 situation? What is it that people should know? 

Kings:                                       Sure. If you’re looking at a cannabis leaf, it’s got seven different leaves on an individual stem. That’s a really easy way to think about. There are seven different major cannabinoids, which are the active ingredients that make you feel things that your body reacts to. 

                                                The two major ones that society and consumption focus on right now are THC and CBD, but there are five other cannabinoids that add to those properties that can help that we don’t have research on yet. 

Emily:                                       She knows her [bleep], you guys. 

Kyle:                                         Yes, I didn’t know that at all. I already learned something. It’s been like six minutes. 

Kings:                                       Fantastic. We’d like to hear. Tell me something I don’t know. 

Kyle:                                         Can you talk a little bit about the overlap between cannabis use and disability in terms of usage and in terms of community? 

Kings:                                       Sure. 

Kyle:                                         Do you find that stigma for cannabis use is higher or lower in disability circles and disability stigma is higher or lower in cannabis circles? It’s that a thing? 

Emily:                                       That’s a great question. 

Kings:                                       That is a great question. There’s a lot of ways you can look at that. You can look at the community base, how many people with disabilities use cannabis as a resource for whatever they’re dealing with, so medically. There’s also a lot of advocacy about leveling a stigma or a stereotype, so disabled individuals, people with disabilities are much better at advocating and saying, “Hey, we’re going to use the tools that work for us to go on with our lives.” 

                                                I think that ability to be resourceful has brought the disability community to cannabis. I don’t think cannabis has yet come to the disability community. I don’t think the medical marijuana market has fully grown to its potential because we haven’t even begun to do the research like I said about what this can do, or Homo sapiens as a race. 

Emily:                                       Cannabis for the Homo sapiens is Kings’s platform 2020. 

Kings:                                       Yes. 

Kyle:                                         I’d vote for you.

Emily:                                       I don’t know if we should have said this at the beginning, but we both live in locations, or all three of us live in locations where medical marijuana is a thing. I know that not all of our listeners live in locations where they have access to medical marijuana because Kings currently resides in Washington, DC. Kyle and I currently reside in New York. We have limited problems getting our hands on this. I know that I’m actually going to be going through the process of getting…

Kyle:                                         Your green card? 

Kings:                                       Yes, your green card. 

Emily:                                       My green card. Whatever it is, I mean I’m super pumped because I do find that I struggle with traditional pain medications so I’m super looking forward to this; but that’s not the reality for everyone. I mean I don’t really know what my question is here, but do you have thoughts on that? 

Kings:                                       Sure. I’ll tell you a little bit about where medical and general legalization stand on a national level. There are 32 places, both the District of Columbia and states that have legalized for medical reasons and decriminalized and/or legalized recreationally in the United States. That is wonderful. 

                                                That is so much more than it was 10 or 20 years ago. 1996 was the first year that cannabis was legalized for medical reasons in California, but there’s a lot more to go. Like I said, there’s a lot of states where this is still a really big stigma and you get drug tested. I’m actually going to a hearing on Thursday for DCH communities for the DC Counsel about what it looks like to drug test, not federal agents, but city agents where that would actually normally be illegal. 

                                                Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, cannabis isn’t covered because it’s a schedule one drug, but in states such as Michigan and New Jersey, people are starting to see community support around there being an exception to the rule when it comes to medical cannabis. The thing people haven’t figured out yet is, “Okay, you’re using cannabis in your personal time outside of your nine to five or whenever you work,” but what does that look when the people are drug tested in the workplace and they say, “No, I’m not high,” but they still have cannabis in their system. We don’t have a non-stigmatized way to look at that and say, “This person is valuably contributing even though they’re using this medication. 

Emily:                                       I mean I guess that raises a really good point. How do we start to make cannabis accessible to people? I think I mean that two-folds. First of all, how do we ensure that people who are taking cannabis for medical reasons are not punished for it and then also, how do we make this a more available resource for people in general? Because right now I still feel like it’s either harder to get your hands on it, or once you do get your hands on it then you’re almost inevitably going to face some stigmatization or problem in the workplace, or you’re just going to run into some barrier. 

Kings:                                       I ran into a lot of stigmas about it at my last job. It was something that I felt really conflicted about because I couldn’t bring full self to work, but I also was super ill. I had a bunch of different muscle reactions to different medications and was trying to figure out how I could bring my full self to work while not using this drug that’s literally prohibited. 

                                                That can be a challenge especially for a community that’s already oppressed and already denied a lot of resources. I’m going to tell you what every politician would tell you and that is go out and vote. There are a lot of elections, in Virginia especially coming up, that are incredibly important to medical and recreational legalization if that’s something you’re interested in that are coming up. 

                                                The presidential candidates are being asked about it in national debate platforms. It’s something that people can advocate for in the here and now even and especially if it’s researched, because that is what we need the most. This vape pen epidemic is coming from a lot of artificial chemicals and reactions that are being put in by black market connoisseur. Sorry, not connoisseur, cannabis producers who are putting in this vitamin E acetate chemical and others that are noxious at a certain temperature and will give you adverse reaction and adverse effects instead. 

                                                In some instances, I think there have been eight deaths across the United States. It’s something that’s not really known. I don’t think vaping is the end all be all. I don’t think it’s cigarettes. I think we need to find a better way to mark the research on this because the market is so not metered. It’s not recorded and produced in any way that we can start building research on it. 

Emily:                                       It seems like there’s a lack of regulation that can cause real harm to people, and also because of the lack of legalization in certain places, it can also cause real harm because, of course, you’re going to go to the black market– 

Kings:                                       Right, exactly. It’s not alcohol and i don’t like using this comparison but it is also something that could be a choice for the American people if we chose to legalize it with restrictions above 21, not while you’re driving, et cetera. Society comes up with to say this is a suitable way to keep people safe. It’s not necessarily a bad thing that it could be legalized recreationally. 

Emily:                                       Right. Make smart choices. 

Kings:                                       Right. Make good choices, that’s what I always say. 

Kyle:                                         I mean that makes sense to us. Speaking of good choices, I’m very curious to know about your first time using cannabis. 

Kings:                                       My first time using cannabis, my very good friend, Willie, who is also a personal care assistant of mine. We became best friends sophomore year of college. Senior year, I said, “Willie, I have one thing on my bucket list, and that is to try weed.” I don’t want to do it at a party. I don’t want to feel pressured. I don’t want to feel like people are watching me. I want to try it once.  

                                                I want to say, “If I don’t like this, I can put it away.” I don’t drink alcohol. It’s not something my body reacts well to. I have not had… not interested in drinking alcoholic beverages and so I really just wanted to see. A lot of friends had told me, I had friends who are cancer patients, friends who have spina bifida, friends who have other neurocognitive or neuromuscular disabilities and beyond that say, “This was really helpful to me.” 

                                                Senior year was the year that I got a concussion, had a couple of falls. I was really not the best picture of health or hallmark. I said, “Willie, I want to try this.” We went in her super inaccessible bedroom basement down of flight of stairs, which her boyfriend carried me down, or up. We sat on her bed and smoked a joint. She didn’t know what kind of strain it was. She knew it would make me giggly, and she knew it would make me happy, and she knew it would make my muscle spasms stop, but that is the only thing she knew. 

                                                I looked her in the eyes and I said, “Willie, I’m taking a chance. This is something I’m putting in my body, like you’re not going to let me do anything terrible.” She said, “No, you’re going to be fine.” We smoked the joint. We fell asleep laughing to each other making stupid puns at 11 o’clock at night so like a very reasonable… it was not a 4:00 a.m. party night, it was we got high together on her bed and ate popcorn and fell asleep. It was the most sheltered experience and that is exactly what I wanted. She had smoked before. I had not. We had a bag of Smartfood Popcorn, so we consumed that entirely. 

Emily:                                       I mean this is a beautiful story. 

Kings:                                       Right, and there was popcorn in our bed. It’s what cemented our friendship really. She lives in Prague now and is just doing her life fabulously as a coordinator for an Anglo American school abroad. I never would have tried it if it hadn’t been for her initial support and then also for her providing a safe, stable environment for me to try it. 

Kyle:                                         That is so ideal. I’m trying to remember my first time and it was nothing like that. I was peer-pressured by a friend. It wasn’t like, “This will take your pain away,” although it totally did. It’s just like, “You should try it. It’ll make you feel good.” I wasn’t opposed to it, so I did. It was really bad, skunk ass weed and I felt nothing, but then 20 minutes later I enjoyed a Dr Pepper for the first time in my life. I guess it must have done something. 

                                                Then years later when I lived in DC, I lived with this couple who were just avid marijuana users for every reason. The wife had CP, who is my friend and she sat me down. She was like, “This is the only thing that takes away my pain better than my prescribed pain medication.” At first I was like, “Shut up.” You know what I mean? How can that possibly be? 

                                                That’s just something that people say because they want to smoke weed, but she insisted that I try it and it totally works. You mentioned earlier that you… did you say that you tried opioids, like various kinds or–? 

Kings:                                       Yes. I’ve had not only a bunch of surgeries, but several intense epileptic events where I’ve had to take both headache medication and pain medication. It makes you so cloudy. 

Kyle:                                         Yes, it does. I take a prescription opioid now as needed. I don’t like it because it does take the pain away not as good as marijuana, of course, but it also makes me feel cloudy just like you said. I remember when I smoked with my friend the first time in DC, I was like, “Holy [bleep]. Is this what able people feel like?” I didn’t even care about being high. I was like, “Yo, is this what it feels like to not be in pain all the time?” 

                                                I was like, I don’t want to say hooked because that sounds like an addiction, but I was an advocate for legalizing marijuana before but after that, I was like, “We have to do this as a society.” 

Kings:                                       I was in favor of legalizing it up until college even before the time that I tried it because I knew the results of cancer patients and other value it provides to communities, but I’m pretty sure I did say to Willie on that night like, “I feel like an AB. I’m not in pain. I could feel all my joints. What is happening?” 

Emily:                                       AB is able-bodied for all you ABs out there. 

Kings:                                       Thank you, Emily, for being the disco dictionary. 

Emily:                                       Honestly, I have only tried pot twice in my life, and it is not for any fear of it. It’s just once was surrounded by a group of friends, and one was with a particular person who made me feel safe. 

Kings:                                       That’s important. 

Emily:                                       I think that the safety aspect of it is incredibly important. 

Kings:                                       Unfortunately, that is something that the disability community and the cannabis community unfortunately can work on. Because there, I was trying to do research in advance for this podcast and talking with you guys about the number of people with disabilities and the number of nonviolent marijuana convictions and how those communities overlap. 

                                                There is a lot of evidence, but not a lot of conclusive correlated information, that talks about these different communities. You think about who is… these nonviolent drug offenders who probably use for their own medical and personal reasons. This is not just a physical prog, this is also for anxiety and depression and ADHD. When you combine all of those things that it can help someone with, yes, it’s going to be… 

                                                There’s probably a lot of different people and there’s going to be a lot of overlap within the disability community. The thing that I would really love to see is the disability community and the cannabis community coming together to find a way to reform these incarcerated… or not reformed because they don’t need to be reformed, that’s the thing. They’re in prison for nonviolent medical marijuana charges, and it’s now becoming legal. 

                                                People are doing what they did ten years ago weekly now. We haven’t caught up and said, “Okay. We forgive you. That’s not a big deal. I’m sorry, we were so late to the party.”  That’s something that we need to come up with a plan with. We need to collaborate on as quickly as possible because people do not deserve to rot in jail, or making themselves feel better about their medication and health. 

Emily:                                       We need to reform the policy if not people basically.

Kings:                                       Yes.

Emily:                                       Yes, I think that’s incredibly true because a lot of people who are just using it for the sake of seeking relief, especially those people, don’t deserve to end up in jail because of it. Although I know Kings, you and I were talking before and you were saying that it was really, really hard to even find any statistics on the number of people incarcerated related to cannabis, or even related to disability in general.

Kings:                                       Yes, I’ve found some wonderful statistics, but none that directly correlated the ratio of people who are incarcerated. I want to make this clear. It’s nonviolent crimes. The only thing that they’ve done incorrectly or petty is using and selling this drug, but going back to… we’re sad and talking about how his friend sat him down and it was like, “This is great for you.” 

                                                Cannabis leaf, we put out a study about a month ago. Leafly is a cannabis resource website. Cannabis to countries and states where it’s legalized reduced opioid deaths by 21%. Not only are you reducing the number of people that could be in jail, you’re reducing the number of people that can die for a related medical reason. 

Kyle:                                         That’s incredible. That’s amazing because I did not know that at all. Did you, Emily? 

Emily:                                       No. I think there’s a very complex issue at play here I guess because I know that opioids are a point of contention politically right now as well. I know that many people do genuinely use opioids for pain relief. I have in the past certainly used opioids for pain relief.  

                                                I, however, have the opposite of an addictive personality. I have a please-get-me-off-this-right-now personality where I tried to stop. When I needed opioids, I have tried to stop them well before it would be advised by a medical professional to stop it. 

Kings:                                       Same. Same. I went to the hospital after a pretty severe… this is exposing, but I had a breast reduction to try and decrease the pressure that they were putting on my spine. 

Emily:                                       Girl, same. 

Kings:                                       It’s a pretty intense surgery, am I right? 

Emily:                                       It really is. It’s really not fun. If you could see Kyle’s face right now… 

Kyle:                                         I’m just sitting here in solidarity. 

Kings:                                       That’s good. We appreciate that. Thank you. It’s painful. I was on opioids for three days, and I went back to the hospital because my gastrointestinal system and digestive system were shutting down. The opioids had flooded my 90 pound body and I was like my organs were not functioning, not working. That is not something that I wanted to have three days after a super intense surgery. I wonder how my recovery and recuperation period would have gone had I had access to medical marijuana at that time. 

Emily:                                       I think that’s a very valid question. I more recently have thought about that a lot especially because my most painful surgery was a procedure for basically straightening out my spine back when I was in high school. I was on a whole cocktail of opioids for quite a while. Again, I am not pushing opioids stigma here because I recognize that for some people, they’re legitimately the only solution to pain. I completely respect what people need to do for their bodies. 

                                                For me, I was very paranoid. I had a lot of trouble sleeping, but then I would fall asleep mid-sentence. I was told multiple times that I would be falling asleep mid-sentence while I was on heavy amount of opioids. I just find myself wishing that I had had some alternatives to try to deal with the pain, but the thing is that now even ten years later, I have so much residual pain from my procedures that I’ve been looking for relief. 

                                                I’m the type of person who will take ibuprofen and muscle relaxants, but I can’t really afford to… and I don’t mean financially, but I mean like my physically cannot afford to introduce opioids back into my life. I really want an alternative. That’s why I’m going to be looking into medical marijuana. 

Kings:                                       My family will tell you that I turn into one of those blow up animal or balloon car things that are outside car washes that flop. 

Emily:                                       The flying things. 

Kings:                                       When you get on really serious opioids and/or pain medications, and I do, Emily, want to thank you for bringing this up. I am not advocating in favor of cannabis versus opioids for everything and everyone. I’m saying that should be an alternative that is offered in order to help people recover in the most successful, healthy way. I completely understand there are still a need for opioids in certain conditions and I’m not against them as a tool. I just think we should have more tools in our toolbox. 

Emily:                                       I think that’s a great way to look at it. Also, I would just go one step further and say that I still think marijuana can be supplementary to opioids as well. Far from a medical expert here, but I think I feel safe enough to say that it doesn’t need to be an either or situation. 

Kings:                                       I agree completely. 

Emily:                                       It needs to be a what works for me right to get me out a pain situation. I know the three of us know a thing or two about pain. I feel like we’ve covered a lot of ground here, but being that Kyle and I are not cannabis connoisseurs, is there anything we missed, or, Kyle, do you think that we missed anything? 

Kyle:                                         I don’t know if we miss anything. Although I wanted to say this, and I didn’t figure out a place to say, but now that you’ve asked me, I really appreciate, Kings, how you constantly throughout this episode referred to cannabis as medicine and not as drug except for when using it specifically in relation to opioids and other drugs. 

                                                I think that little things like that really helped to reduce the stigma because when you frame it in the sense of like, “Why don’t you let me have my medicine?” I really think… and it’s just something I realized in hearing you talk. I never thought of this before. It makes it a lot easier for people who I would assume would be against this type of thing to digest. 

Kings:                                       That’s the thing, Kyle, that I want to push. It can really be a resource if we make good choices and use it properly. Not abusing it is how we get the health benefits, how we get the research, how we can promote it as an advocacy tool for multiple marginalized communities. 

Emily:                                       How do you feel about the prospects of expanding access to it and legalization just based on what you know about it? Because right now the people that I know who do use medical marijuana, or at least the people that I know in New York State, they have to go somewhere and they are working with the pharmacist but it’s not a pharmacist who’d act like your average CVS Pharmacy or Walgreens or Rite Aid. 

                                                It’s still this very separate thing, but when they’re there, it’s still referred to as medicine. I mean do you think we’re ever going to reach a point where you can go to your CVS Pharmacy counter and there will be a marijuana expert behind the counter as well? 

Kings:                                       I hope so. I think a lot is going to depend on whether people get out to vote and especially creep to vote in the next coming elections both locally, regionally, and federally. I think it’s important to recognize that it will potentially, and this is my guess, be legalized medically before it’s legalized recreationally. 

                                                I think that’s an important distinction because I feel like we need to prioritize this as a resource for the people who need it, for the disability community because it is, as Kyle said, a medicine. It’s not something we should abuse. 

Emily:                                       I’m hoping that we reach that point. 

Kyle:                                         Me too. 

Emily:                                       At the end of every episode, we like to do what we call final takeaways, which is where we ask our lovely guest to give a bit of a wrap up and let us know what it is that you want us to take away about this. I mean I think that you made so many good points about getting out to vote, about destigmatizing, decriminalizing, and also recognizing that it is medicine and it has value but that we’re not trying to pit it against opioids. I mean I feel like I just did your wrap up for you, but if you could leave our listeners with one thing to take away, what would it be? 

Kings:                                       I would tell them if they wanted to check out additional resources, they should check out my website, which is kingsfloyd.com/kingsofcannabis and they can find out more about not only the obtaining of a medical marijuana card in DC specifically, but also reach out to me for resources as well as just fun descriptions and funny stories about my journey with medical cannabis and how I’ve been making it work for me. 

Emily:                                       Girl, promote that brand. 

Kyle:                                         Where else can people find you? Feel free to plug everything you have. 

Kings:                                       Sweet. All the social media bases are covered, Insta, Facebook, Twitter, Kings Floyd. I would love to connect with anyone who has more questions, not just medically but recreationally. I understand that we have more than just disabled listeners on board who may want to try this out, but I do want to make it clear the I am promoting it medically specifically first. 

Emily:                                       Also, I feel like we’re probably going to have to say at the beginning of the show some medical disclaimer. We’re not doctors. 

Kings:                                       Good. Yes. 

Emily:                                       I’m just realizing that now. 

Kings:                                       We are not medical experts. I do not consider myself a medical or cannabis expert. Cannabis connoisseur, definitely. I’ve tried over a hundred strains at this point and I know what works and what doesn’t work. That’s another thing. The first strain that you try will probably not be the strain that works the best for you. Talking with your “pharmacist” is actually really helpful. The two dispensaries that I’ve used in DC have been phenomenal for really thinking through the symptoms and realities of different strains and how they could benefit me. 

Emily:                                       I mean I remember when we’ve had conversations about this, you’re like, “Let’s sit down and actually talk about what each strain does.” You whipped out an app on your phone and we’re like, “Here’s details.” 

Kings:                                       Leafly and StickyGuide are both great references for different types of strains. It’s really worth doing the research on because there are so many options. Basic cannabis 101, which I feel like we jumped over is there’s seven cannabinoids, but there’s also two or three main types of weed, and that is Indica, Sativa, or Hybrid. The way people think of that is Indica is mostly a mental based; Sativa is mostly a body based; and a Hybrid is a combination of both. There are thousands of different combinations. 

Emily:                                       I mean I think the fact that we got to that at the literal end of the podcast shows that people really need to do their homework. I think that is my final takeaway here. Do your homework, figure out if it’s right for you. Obviously, we’re not pressuring you any which way. We just felt like this was something that was really important for people to feel safe having a conversation about. That’s why we’re doing this episode. 

Kings:                                       Also, you don’t have to smoke it. That’s another stigma like it’s smelly and it’s gross and you inhale it. That’s one option, but it’s not the only option and there’s really so many possibilities of how this can benefit you. 

Emily:                                       Speaking of somebody who absolutely does not like breathing things in but can definitely get behind brownies and gummy bears, yes. 

Kyle:                                         Hard same. 

Emily:                                       Kyle, you got a final takeaway? 

Kyle:                                         No. 

Kings:                                       Kyle, done already. 

Emily:                                       Well said. 

Kyle:                                         Yes, right. No. This episode was great. Emily said you were an expert, but I didn’t realize exactly how much of one you were. 

Emily:                                       You see I know we were specifically instructed to refer to you as a connoisseur and not an expert… 

Kyle:                                         I’m sorry, a connoisseur. 

Emily:                                       … but I really do think that Kings knows her stuff and she’s definitely one of the people who’s made me more comfortable with the idea of medical cannabis. 

Kyle:                                         Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time. 

Kings:                                       You know what? Thank you, Emily and Kyle. That’s what I’m here for. I’m here to be a resource and I’m here to make you all feel better. 

Emily:                                       She’s the literal best, one of my IRL favorite people best friends, favorite humans in the universe. Go hit her up if you have questions. I think that has been probably one of the most informative, worthwhile episodes that we’ve done.

Kings:                                       Thank you both so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. 

Emily:                                       Thanks for being here. This has been another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle:                                         If you’d like to support The Accessible Stall, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, or donate to our Patreon. Just $1 a month ensures that current and future episodes of The Accessible Stall – I don’t know the name of our own show, will remain accessible – and might we say, “You look good today.” 

Emily:                                       Bye. 

Kyle:                                         Bye-bye.

Kings:                                       Bye. 

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Episode 75: Empathy Exercises, Story Time IV

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Emily Ladau 0:00
The transcript for this episode is brought to you by SeamlessDocs

Kyle Khachadurian 0:03
SeamlessDocs is an E-signature and form automation platform that enables governments to go paperless and deliver better online services to citizens and staff.

Emily Ladau 0:15
Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian 0:18
and I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau 0:20
And you’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian 0:23
Emily, I have a question.

Emily Ladau 0:24
Yes. Why didn’t you introduce yourself as blind beard the pirate? That’s a very, very good question, because that is what I am today.

Kyle Khachadurian 0:34
It’s a storytime episode.

Emily Ladau 0:37
Oh my god. Okay, but somehow this is going to bring us around to a point about disability simulations. Because everyone needs a moral right. That’s what we need for me the episodes. Yep. So here’s what happened. And I’m going to try to keep this I guess somewhat short. And also, oh my god, if you find I stuff to be disgusting. This is not the episode for you.

Kyle Khachadurian 1:07
Trigger warning. Eye stuff.

Emily Ladau 1:09
So anyway, on Friday night, my I was really bothering me. So I was rubbing on it like a maniac. And then on Saturday morning, it was swollen shut. And so I went to urgent care. Are you already laughing? I mean,

Kyle Khachadurian 1:27
How do you itch your eye swollen shut?!

Emily Ladau 1:30
I don’t know something nefarious was at play.

Kyle Khachadurian 1:30
Just if anyone’s listening to this. Have you ever done that? Have you ever heard of anyone doing that mean either? Okay, go on.

Emily Ladau 1:30
I would just rubbing it really, really hard. so it was swollen shut when I woke up in the morning, but it wasn’t really hurting. It was just swollen. So we went to urgent care. And I met urgent care. And they’re like, Oh, yeah, you probably have a sty. And like, Okay, what do I do? So she gave me antibiotic ointment for my eyeball. Right?

I don’t know something nefarious with that play?

Kyle Khachadurian 1:33
Just if anyone’s listening to this. Have you ever done that? Have you ever heard of anyone doing that mean either? Okay, go on.

Emily Ladau 1:39
I would just rubbing it really, really hard. so swollen shut when I woke up in the morning, but it wasn’t really hurting. It was just swollen. So we went to urgent care. And I met urgent care. And they’re like, Oh, yeah, you probably have a sty? And like, Okay, what do I do? So she gave me antibiotic ointment for my eyeball, right?

So then I’m like,

home for a little while, and all of a sudden, my eyes start turning worse. So we’re putting compresses on it and we’re trying to calm down whatever was going on. And then it gets so bad that it feels like somebody has a knife in my eyeball repeatedly. So we go to the emergency room

and we’re at the emergency room, and they’re doing all this crap to my eye and they’re all like, looking at it and poking at it with q-tips and stuff. So they’re like yeah, we don’t know what’s wrong with you, but you’re fine go home, say go home, and it’s still in miserable, terrible pain. Anyway, we went to the ophthalmologist today turns out I have a corneal abrasion. God only knows how, probably did it to myself.

Unknown Speaker 3:06
somehow interconnected, at least in that when I moved my good eye it still hurts my bad eye right now. So, long story short, I’ve been blind for the weekend.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
I have a question How did a team of ER professionals miss a scratch on your cornea?

Unknown Speaker 3:06
Well, you see, I don’t know.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
I see, you don’t!

Emily Ladau 3:06
All right, correct. Sorry.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
Yeah.

Emily Ladau 3:06
Right. Oh, the jokes. Um, I wish I knew because I’m really annoyed because that screwed my whole weekend. Well, I mean, it’s not really their fault.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
Yeah, I hate when I temporarily go blind over the weekend. It really ruins things.

Emily Ladau 3:08
somehow interconnected, at least in that when I moved my good I it still hurts my bad i right now. So long story short, I’ve been blind for the weekend.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:20
I have a question. How did a team of er professionals Miss scratching your cornea?

Emily Ladau 3:25
Well, you see, I don’t know. I see. You don’t all right. Correct. Sorry. Yeah, right. Oh, the jokes. Um, I wish I knew because I’m really annoyed because that screwed my whole weekend. Well, I mean, it’s not really their fault.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:39
Yeah, I hate when I temporarily go blind over the weekend, it really ruins.

Emily Ladau 3:44
But it got me thinking as everything in my life always does about disability. And I was thinking about how this was basically, and still is some kind of forced

And the moral of that story is that I am still not in support of simulations because honestly, I have learned nothing from this about what it is really like to be blind. And I feel like this is just lending further proof to my beliefs that simulation accomplished nothing. Because all weekend I have just felt so helpless and useless and I can’t do things for myself.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:59
Also, I mean, I agree with you i think the emphasize exercises are really stupid and simulation exercises are also really stupid. But I… I think there’s a difference between like voluntarily signing up for one and being thrust into one because you scratch your corneas.

Emily that has nothing to do with your blindness that’s because you’re disabled also.

Emily Ladau 3:59
simulation. And the moral of that story is that I am still not in support of simulations, because honestly, I have learned nothing from this about what it is really like to be blind. And I feel like this is just lending further proof to my beliefs that simulation accomplished nothing. Because all weekend, I have just felt so helpless and useless. And I can’t do things for myself,

Kyle Khachadurian 4:30
Emily, that has nothing to do with your blindness. That’s because you’re disabled also. All also, I mean, I agree with you. I think the emphasize exercises are really stupid. And simulation exercises are also really stupid. But I I think there’s a difference between like voluntarily signing up for one and being thrust into one because you scratch your corneas.

Emily Ladau 4:51
Oh, totally. But this is as close as I’m going to get because I don’t believe in doing them in the first place. And all I know is that I

idea what it’s actually like to be a blind person because I haven’t been adapting, I’ve just been whining like a little b**** this weekend.

Oh, totally but this is as close as I’m going to get because I don’t believe in doing them in the first place. And all I know is that I have no

Kyle Khachadurian 5:07
I mean, I don’t know, either, but I feel like if you spontaneously lost your sight, you’d be doing that for a day or two.

Emily Ladau 5:13
For more than a day or two Sure, like I, you know, I think it just made me realize that,

Like, if someone breaks their leg, and they have to use the wheelchair, like a short amount of time is not enough time to adapt and figure out the emotional nuances and complexity. It’s enough to put you in an incredibly bad mood, and be all was me and learn absolutely nothing about the real day to day experiences of someone who has a particular type of disability that you are temporarily experiencing.

Kyle Khachadurian 5:49
I was gonna say the same thing, I think I mean, I’ve never done one of these, but I would assume that it would make you kind of pissed off and angry. And you come out of it

Huh, the world is inaccessible. You come out of it like, Huh, I’m glad that’s over, f*** those guys.

Emily Ladau 5:59
Honestly, yeah. And this is not me being ableist.

like, if someone breaks their leg and they have to use the wheelchair, like, a short amount of time is not enough time to adapt and figure out the emotional nuances and complexity. It’s enough to put you in an incredibly bad mood, and be all woe is me and learn absolutely nothing about the real day to day experiences of someone who has a particular type of disability that you are temporarily experiencing.

Kyle Khachadurian 5:59
I was gonna say the same thing, I think, I mean, I’ve never done one of these, but I would assume that it would make you kind of pissed off and angry, and you come out of it. Not being like

I’m not being funny either. Like, I really think that’s what’s going to happen if you do it for like less than I don’t know some really long amount of time that no one would want to do it.

Unknown Speaker 5:59
Yeah, it’s just ugh, God. But the point is I’m not pretending over here, but this really sucks. And I can’t go around being like, Oh yeah, I was blind for a weekend so I get it. No, I’m just cranky and annoying. I don’t actually understand what your experiences are like.

Kyle Khachadurian 5:59
being like, hmm, the world is inaccessible. You come out of it like, Huh, I’m glad that’s over those guys.

Emily Ladau 6:07
Honestly, yeah. And not me being able.

Kyle Khachadurian 6:11
I’m not being funny either. Like, I really think that’s what’s going to happen. If you do it for like less than I don’t know, some really long amount of time that no one want to do it.

Emily Ladau 6:19
Yeah, it’s just God. But the point is, I’m not pretending over here. But this really sucks. And I can’t go around being like, Oh, yeah, I was blind for a weekend. So I get it. No, I’m just cranky and annoying. I don’t actually understand what your experiences are like,

Kyle Khachadurian 6:36
I don’t understand what you’re experiencing right now either because cranky and annoyed is your default state.

Emily Ladau 6:41
Right? But like

Right, but like, extra cranky and annoyed

Kyle Khachadurian 6:42
Jesus.

I don’t understand what you’re experiencing right now either because cranky and annoyed is your default state.

Emily Ladau 6:42
Take my default state and quadruple it.

extra for a team, my boss dating quite true. But

Kyle Khachadurian 6:51
Jesus.

Emily Ladau 6:53
All I’m saying is, this is unintentionally reaffirming my belief that simulate

They’re terrible idea because you’re just never going to actually understand a person’s life experience. And if you’re in a wheelchair for a weekend, you ain’t gonna understand mine. If I’m struggling to see for a weekend, I ain’t understand yours, it just doesn’t work.

Kyle Khachadurian 7:15
Not for that amount of time. I think like, hypothetically, if you gave a person a long enough time scale, that they could sort of begin to understand what it would be like I don’t know what that amount of time would be, but certainly not over a weekend.

Not for that amount of time. I think like hypothetically, if you gave a person a long enough time scale, that they could sort of begin to understand what it would be like I don’t know what that amount of time would be, but certainly not over a weekend.

Emily Ladau 7:29
Yeah, like I had a friend who had a project in college where she had to use a wheelchair for a day and try to get around on public transportation. And she told me she got so fed up trying to get on the Washington DC Metro, that she stood up and lifted the chair over the gap.

Kyle Khachadurian 7:48
Wait, the Washington DC Metro is like the most ideal place to do that.

Wait, the Washington DC Metro is like the most ideal place to do that.

Emily Ladau 7:52
Yep, yep. Yeah.

And I was like, you’re annoyed?! Try living my life. And then I was like,

And I was like, you’re annoyed. Try living my life. And then I was like, Yeah, I see. You’re not getting the point here. Because first of all, I don’t want you to feel bad for me. I just want you to be mad at the system.

Kyle Khachadurian 8:07
I have a friend who occasionally like just as a joke, not a joke, like it’s a serious thing. But in jest, hosts these blind movie nights, she’s blind, that that I say that I have a friend who’s blind who occasionally posts who occasionally hosts these blind movie nights where like, they’ll watch a movie. And like, as soon as it starts, you have to put a blindfold on if you can see. And then you can’t take it off until after the credits are over, even if you have to pee. And she does that, just to show people the importance of audio description. Um, but it ends up being funny for everyone who can see. And meanwhile she’s the one getting the last laugh, but I something like that, to me wouldn’t necessarily count as an exercise so much as it is, you know, jokes amongst friends, I don’t really know how useful that would be is like a practical application of what it is to be blind.

Emily Ladau 8:58
I mean, it’s kind of making you think of bird box. And now everyone was doing the bird box challenge.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:03
Okay, that challenge was stupid. But that movie was great. Fight me.

Emily Ladau 9:06
I actually haven’t seen it. So I have no idea.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:06
I don’t think… I don’t think you’d like it. It’s not your kind of movie. I was mainly talking to the people.

Emily Ladau 9:06
I mean, and now I feel like I’m gonna have people come after me and be like, are now you’re an expert on simulations, because you were blind for a weekend. And it’s like, no, that’s really not my point here.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:06
No, but I think I think that there’s some validity to that, because that’s how long a simulation would last anyway. I mean, you’d have to do a few of them. But I would say after a few of them. You are an expert and why simulations are bad.

Emily Ladau 9:06
Yeah, it’s not like I’m saying I’m an expert in blindness.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:06
But there’s a point isn’t it?

Emily Ladau 9:53
Yeah, I just I have always wanted to talk about simulations on the podcast anyway, because I feel really strongly against them. And I always have. And this just sort of unintentionally is affirming the fact that rather than a feeling of empathy, it’s just evoked this feeling of helplessness because like, I was eating a bowl of pasta, and then I realized there were only a few pieces of pasta left, but I couldn’t find them with my fork. So I had to ask my dad to help me find the pasta. And I was like, I just feel like a helpless blob. And that’s not how blind people are.

Kyle Khachadurian 10:34
You are though that you are not you are a helpless blob, whether or not you’re blind.

Emily Ladau 10:34
And it’s the same thing with like, being in a chair, where it’s like you’re in a chair for a weekend. You know, I’m not suddenly a helpless blob because I’m sitting down. I’m a helpless blob because I’m lazy, but, you know,

Kyle Khachadurian 10:34
Disability be damned, that has nothing to do with it!

Emily Ladau 10:34
I just gah! Simulations annoy me. And I think leave it to me to take a random one and a gazillion chance of scratching my own eyeball out to turn it into a podcast episode. But you know me everything’s about disability.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:25
How do I know you didn’t do this on purpose for that sweet, sweet content?

Emily Ladau 11:29
You’re right. I did. I do a lot of things for the content. Like injure myself miserably.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
How did you even… how itchy was your eye?

Emily Ladau 11:36
I think maybe there was an eyelash in it or something. And then I just rubbed my eye into oblivion. Yep. Going through life with one eye open. Except neither eyes opened right now. I realized podcasting is the thing I can do without seeing.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
You really couldn’t put that together before?

Emily Ladau 11:36
Nope.

That’s where we’re at!

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
Maybe you did need the simulation exercise!

Emily Ladau 11:36
This should not be called simulation. I think this should be called Emily’s life is a mess.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
I’m calling it Story Time 4 for which is probably much better than Toy Story 4 which I haven’t seen yet. But I heard it was bad.

Emily Ladau 11:36
Terrible. It was not good. Let’s just put it this way. We had an eight year old with us, my eight year old neighbor. And she kept standing up every like five minutes and being like how much minutes is left? How much minutes is left?

Kyle Khachadurian 12:41
Oh, wow. That doesn’t bode well.

Emily Ladau 12:44
Yeah, yeah. It’s like you know, it’s bad if

you’re exact intended audience is like, this is weird.

Although speaking of disability stuff, man, my mom was not happy with Toy Story 4 she was so not happy you within that she tweeted about it all by herself.

Kyle Khachadurian 12:47
What on earth, do I even want to know?

Emily Ladau 13:06
So apparently, and I agree with her, she thinks that it sends the message that if you’re defective, no one will love you. Because there’s this whole premise with a toy that has a broken little voice box. And she believes that that’s the reason why no one has taken her off the shelf because her voice box doesn’t work.

Kyle Khachadurian 13:29
Then they already do that with the penguin and Toy Story 2? They really are running out of ideas.

Emily Ladau 13:29
They shouldn’t have made a fourth one. But anyway, my mom was so salty. She do eat it all by herself. That’s really

Kyle Khachadurian 13:29
That’s really funny

Emily Ladau 13:29
Just to complain that Toy Story for perpetuating the message that you can’t be loved if you’re defective, which honestly not a great message. But then somebody got real real mad at her on Twitter and was like, No, it’s sending a message that organ donation is a good thing.

Kyle Khachadurian 13:29
I don’t think it’s… I haven’t seen it yet. So I might be completely wrong, but that seems a little bit too weird for Pixar.

Emily Ladau 13:29
It is because a bunch of creepy dolls corner Woody and knock him out and steal his voice box. But Yep, organ donation.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:19
Spoilers! Jesus.

Emily Ladau 14:21
Okay, other content warning Toy Story 4 spoilers.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:21
We really have to like, put that up there. Um,

Emily Ladau 14:21
It’s not a good movie doesn’t matter!

Kyle Khachadurian 14:21
Yeah. Well, I don’t know. But, Emily, I just got to tell you. I’m like, this is the funniest thing I’ve heard all month.

Emily Ladau 14:41
Oh, you’re welcome.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:42
Yeah, thank you for scratching your cornea is it really means a lot to me.

Emily Ladau 14:46
I’m in so much pain. I’m glad you enjoy it.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:48
No, I don’t, I don’t like that. I don’t even like the fact that you’re blind. I just like all the stuff that are that is happening to you because of at all.

Yeah, yeah.

Emily Ladau 15:06
Yeah, I’ve just been knocking things over and spilling things and being a general mass didn’t realize I do that when I can see. So

Not much is different.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:06
Except it’s a lot darker in here. We have a lot of blind fans, they’re gonna be pissed at us?

Emily Ladau 15:15
I hope that they know that this is all in jest. And that honestly, it’s more just me recounting and experience.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:23
I’m sure, they’re all decent people.

Emily Ladau 15:26
And if they do get mad at me, then I sincerely apologize.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:31
She’s just not used to this.

Emily Ladau 15:34
Right. But then again, like somebody using a wheelchair, or who wears noise cancelling headphones, and earplugs for a weekend is also not used to it, and it’s not going to get anything practical or useful out of it. The only simulation exercise that I think ever really proved a point to me, was drunk driving.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Oh see, I was gonna say smoking where they make you like breathe through a straw.

Emily Ladau 15:57
What I’ve never had to do that.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Have to? you don’t have to.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Like I never had to do that in like a health class or anything.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Oh, they made us do it. It was like I mean, I never ever wanted to smoke cigarettes or pretty much anything else. But like that would. That would have made me change my mind. I think if I was one of those kids that really wanted to do that.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Although is that then… Even though it’s supposed to be about smoking, ableist, in a sense, because there are people who do have breathing disabilities that have nothing to do with smoking.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
I mean, technically,

I suppose. But I think it’s different. Because this is something where it’s like, Look, if you do this, you will end up this way. Whereas if it’s a disability, it’s probably something that you either were born with or have had for a while. So it’s, I don’t think it’s in the same… I think the context matters, but yeah, I suppose you’re technically correct. Sure.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Maybe she’s born with it. Maybe it’s… emphysema

Kyle Khachadurian

Oh, that’s a good one. That’s that’s the Instagram clip for this.

Emily Ladau

You shouldn’t let me talk when I’m in pain, you really shouldn’t.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Well, it was your idea to do this episode, Emily.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Yep, you’re right. It was.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Oh, my goodness,

Emily Ladau 15:57
Al that talk of smoking made me thirsty. Anyway.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Yeah, that’s a normal reaction,

Emily Ladau 15:57
drunk driving simulation. So I think I did that when I was in health class in middle school, I may give you the goggles,

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Right.

Emily Ladau 15:57
To simulate drunk night driving. And I was using my Walker at the time. And I tried to get my Walker in between like a pole in the classroom, and the teachers desk, and I smashed right into the pole. And I was like, This is why you don’t drive drunk.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
That is…

Emily Ladau 15:57
and that was like, very effective.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Yeah, that would do it.

Emily Ladau 15:57
I feel like that’s maybe the only useful simulation I can really think of.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
But I feel like, okay, so I’m not going to defend them. Because I don’t like them either. But like, for all I know, sitting in a wheelchair for a weekend, or I mean, I don’t think that’s enough time at all. But like, for all I know, that could have an effect on someone that the drunk driving thing had on you. Except in that situation, I would say… I mean, I’m imagining it not sending the message that this isn’t how you want to live your life. And instead of being optimistic, and assuming that somebody realizes how inaccessible the world is, but for all that, you know, for all anyone knows, that could maybe have touched the person at some point. I don’t know. I still don’t like them though.

Emily Ladau 18:41
Okay, I have thought about that. And I do know that sometimes, that is the takeaway. What are you going to do with that takeaway is my question.

Kyle Khachadurian 18:52
Yeah. But I mean, that’s not really up to you. It’s up to the person.

What do we want time travel? What do we want? It doesn’t matter! I see your point. I do. But like, if you’re someone… I think what you’re talking about works for a certain kind of people. I think the people who need empathy exercises and simulation exercises and all that stuff that we all like that we’re all hating on right now. Those people are so far removed from your mere existence, that they literally can’t comprehend how someone like you might live, so to say, Oh, I don’t need you to be aware of me. I need access to like, Yeah, that’s true. But the people who need those exercises aren’t people who can give you access because they don’t even know about you. And I don’t mean you, Emily. I mean, like people like us at all. So those for those people, I think awareness is very important. But also, I would say there’s a bajillion in one ways to do to do awareness better than Hey, sit in this wheelchair for weekend. So…

Emily Ladau 24:38
Right, but I’m saying, What are you hoping to accomplish? What are simulation exercises both to accomplish, because they’re often meant to accomplish empathy. But the thing is, I don’t want empathy. I want access. And I suppose best case scenario for simulation exercise would be if you were simulating a particular disability while being accompanied by someone who actually had that disability. And you sort of learned some of the ins and outs of where they hit access issues. And maybe when you’re done let’s say, You’re like a business owner or something, you use it to sort of fix those pain points around your business. So then I can see that being practical. But I feel like if anything is just evokes this reaction of man, I feel bad for that person. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Yeah, I mean, simulation, the simulation exercises that you that you’ve described in the one that I described to with the smoking like, those are all meant to deter you from doing the thing that they’re demonstrating. Yeah, what does it say, if like you’re doing that, you know, if your version of that is wearing a blindfold, or plugging your ears or sitting in a wheelchair?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Exactly, it’s just been some kind of a message that this is bad. And I remember back in college, when I really started to become uncomfortable with the idea of simulations. Um, one thing that really got me was a girl who was a Resident Advisor in my dorm, asked if she could borrow my wheelchair for simulation exercise. For like an obstacle course. I was like, Oh, you want to borrow my very expensive piece of medical equipment to do your little exercise? No.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
See, to me, though, see, that’s the kind of person that like needs it, right, because that person is so dense that they don’t even realize that that’s your, that’s your method of ambulation, your or of mobility, not ambulation,

Emily Ladau 24:39
I told her to go to health services and use one of their wheelchairs or whatever. But then I thought about it some more. And I realized that I don’t want people doing an obstacle course to try to understand what my life is like, because that’s a very limited and not an all nuanced understanding of my experience.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Your life is totally an obstacle course.

Emily Ladau 24:39
Of course it is. But like they don’t need to know that.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
But they would if they did it!

See this is what it is, it has nothing to do with like or dislike, you just don’t want them to know that this is an accurate representation of what it’s like to be you.

Emily Ladau 24:39
You’re right, I want them to live with an air of mystery around me. But it also bothered me, I remember. I guess this kind of harkens back to the drunk driving simulation. So uh, at my college Disability Awareness Week was juxtaposed with Alcoholism Awareness Week. So like, there was Alcoholism Awareness Week on the calendar, and then the week after with Disability Awareness Week, and I’ve talked to a couple people who do consider alcoholism a disability. So I’ve kind of had to think through my argument about this a little bit. But, um, the larger point that I wanted people to realize is that disability is not something that you need to go have fixed, or that is a problem in the same way that alcoholism is. And I was not comfortable, like that juxtaposition.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Me neither. That’s a little bit weird. And by a little bit, I mean extreme. Like, that’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s sort of like subconscious, like not in the literal sense, but like, you’re sort of like oh, so what they’re just two weeks next to each other, right? But like, you don’t know what kind of impression seeing that. If you’re someone who’s like, impressionable, and young would think, who knows?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Not to mention, I don’t want you to be aware of me. I mean, I do? But not like that?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
What do you want?

Emily Ladau 24:39
access? When do you want it? Now!

Yeah, like, I don’t know, maybe have an actual conversation with me

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
No, they can’t do that. Don’t be ridiculous.

Emily Ladau 24:39
You’re right. That’s that was a silly suggestion. Have we really never talked about this before on the podcast?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
No. But you know what? Nothing like going blind to spark up a good old brainstorming meeting.

Emily Ladau 24:39
Ugh, this is honestly like the most distracted I’ve been from the pain pretty much all weekend. So I’m grateful for it. Even if people think this is just a hot mess of an episode.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
I you know,

I don’t think it’s a hot mess of episode just like a mess like a Marie Kondo situation needs to happen. But that’s what editing is for.

Emily Ladau 24:39
I mean, the thing about Marie Kondo is that you’re supposed to decide if it sparks joy. And this episode sparks joy.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
But does your corneal scratch spark joy?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Nope.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Well,

Emily Ladau 24:39
And neither does our garbage trash health care system. Because…

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Where did that come from?!

Emily Ladau 24:39
How did urgent care and the emergency room miss this?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
I mean, maybe they have corneal screatches too! I have no idea. Yeah, I went there. I made a disability joke.

Emily Ladau 24:39
Oh, man. Yeah. Healthcare is terrible. Everything’s terrible. My eyeball hurts. Do you have any stories you’d like to share?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Which which which eye is it?

Emily Ladau 24:39
it’s the left eye.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
I don’t don’t know why, it doesn’t matter

Emily Ladau 24:39
Left Eye Lopez right with that person.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Yeah, is she dead?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Lisa Left Eye Lopez Is that it? She was on NSYNC song.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Yeah, she was. That’s exactly the only reason I know her. I don’t even remember the song. I just remember what a ridiculous name that is.

Emily Ladau 26:45
Space Cowboy.

Kyle Khachadurian 26:47
Oh.

Yeah.

Emily Ladau 26:51
Which is a great song actually.

Kyle Khachadurian 26:53
Yeah.

No, I I actually don’t have any story. At least not one to compete with that.

Emily Ladau 27:04
Why not? Why am I always the one who has all the story? That’s not true.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:08
Yeah. It’s not true, but…

Today you are. I’ve never scratch my corneas.

Emily Ladau 27:16
I don’t recommend it.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:20
Based on

Emily Ladau 27:21
It really hurts

Kyle Khachadurian 27:21
Based on what you’ve told me it sounds like a bad time.

Emily Ladau 27:24
would not recommend

at all.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:31
Oh just so you know, just so you know, I mean, you guys can’t see us, pun fully intended. But Emily is sitting in a completely, what looks to me like a pitch dark room. And I am not. So just

Emily Ladau 27:47
Oh yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:47
Her her injury is real. Allegedly.

Emily Ladau 27:52
It’s real allegedly? Thanks, Kyle.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:54
Well, I mean, I don’t know for all I know, you could be sitting there in the dark, just like oh, yeah, my cornea’s scratched. Sure it is, is I just didn’t, I forgot to turn the light switch on.

Emily Ladau 28:02
Oh, would you like my medical records?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:04
No, I don’t know. No, no, I don’t need your medical records your mom came in earlier. I know. It’s real.

Please.

Emily Ladau 28:13
My poor parents have been at my beck and call all weekend and I feel terrible. I don’t know that anybody else is gonna listen to this episode, but it was very therapeutic for me.

Kyle Khachadurian 28:25
I don’t know. I thought I think it was pretty funny.

Emily Ladau 28:29
Um, do we have final takeaways for this nonsense?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:35
Yeah, I’m gonna try really hard not to scratch my corneas

Emily Ladau 28:37
Oh my god. Yes. Safety first everyone. Wait, I can’t see the screen. How long have we been going?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:42
Just about long enough? 33 minutes?

Emily Ladau 28:45
What we’ve been talking for

30 minutes?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:49
Yeah.

How long did it feel like?

Emily Ladau 28:53
I truly have no concept of time right now.

Kyle Khachadurian 28:57
My God, you lose your sight for five minutes. And you can’t even it’s only been five minutes. You know that right? You scratched your cornea five minutes ago.

Emily Ladau 29:04
Yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian 29:05
And you don’t even know how long a half hour is! What is wrong with you?!

Emily Ladau 29:13
I’ve been sitting with my headphones plugged into my phone, listening to Bon Appetit videos on YouTube all day And alternately waking up and falling asleep.

Kyle Khachadurian 29:24
It’s either been five minutes or five years. I mean, because these corneas I really can’t tell you which one.

Emily Ladau 29:32
No, I mean, I’m being very dramatic. Like I’ve been able to open my eyes for like, a hot minute just to get a glimpse at something

Kyle Khachadurian 29:42
Is one of your eyes gross looking right now? Like is there like a…?

Emily Ladau 29:44
Yeah, it’s really… it looks like a red spider web.

Kyle Khachadurian 29:47
Oh, that’s awesome. That is so great.

Emily Ladau 29:55
I would like to thank the good people out in the land of the internet for adults this episode.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:02
I would like to thank Emily for being a good sport.

Emily Ladau 30:10
I would also like to say that my final takeaway is stop it with the simulations. They don’t make any sense. They don’t work. I don’t know a damn thing about being blind.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:21
Anyway, my final takeaway is Yeah, empathy exercises suck. I mean, I’m sure you all knew that. But like, it’s about time we did an episode on those. And uh…

Emily Ladau 30:31
Yeah, don’t do it

Kyle Khachadurian 30:32
Try not to scratch your cornea.

Emily Ladau 30:34
Yeah. Oh my god. Please take care of your eyeballs.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:38
You only got two of them. Unless you don’t, in which case you only have as many as you have. Good night, everybody.

Emily Ladau 30:45
Thanks for listening.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:47
And might we say you look good today. Actually, I have no idea how Emily looks today today, because I can’t see her. And she can’t see me either.

So…

But, you know what? One thing’s for sure though. You definitely look good today.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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