The Accessible Stall

Emily Ladau 0:00
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Kyle Khachadurian 0:03
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Emily Ladau 0:15
Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian 0:18
and I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau 0:20
And you’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian 0:23
Emily, I have a question.

Emily Ladau 0:24
Yes. Why didn’t you introduce yourself as blind beard the pirate? That’s a very, very good question, because that is what I am today.

Kyle Khachadurian 0:34
It’s a storytime episode.

Emily Ladau 0:37
Oh my god. Okay, but somehow this is going to bring us around to a point about disability simulations. Because everyone needs a moral right. That’s what we need for me the episodes. Yep. So here’s what happened. And I’m going to try to keep this I guess somewhat short. And also, oh my god, if you find I stuff to be disgusting. This is not the episode for you.

Kyle Khachadurian 1:07
Trigger warning. Eye stuff.

Emily Ladau 1:09
So anyway, on Friday night, my I was really bothering me. So I was rubbing on it like a maniac. And then on Saturday morning, it was swollen shut. And so I went to urgent care. Are you already laughing? I mean,

Kyle Khachadurian 1:27
How do you itch your eye swollen shut?!

Emily Ladau 1:30
I don’t know something nefarious was at play.

Kyle Khachadurian 1:30
Just if anyone’s listening to this. Have you ever done that? Have you ever heard of anyone doing that mean either? Okay, go on.

Emily Ladau 1:30
I would just rubbing it really, really hard. so it was swollen shut when I woke up in the morning, but it wasn’t really hurting. It was just swollen. So we went to urgent care. And I met urgent care. And they’re like, Oh, yeah, you probably have a sty. And like, Okay, what do I do? So she gave me antibiotic ointment for my eyeball. Right?

I don’t know something nefarious with that play?

Kyle Khachadurian 1:33
Just if anyone’s listening to this. Have you ever done that? Have you ever heard of anyone doing that mean either? Okay, go on.

Emily Ladau 1:39
I would just rubbing it really, really hard. so swollen shut when I woke up in the morning, but it wasn’t really hurting. It was just swollen. So we went to urgent care. And I met urgent care. And they’re like, Oh, yeah, you probably have a sty? And like, Okay, what do I do? So she gave me antibiotic ointment for my eyeball, right?

So then I’m like,

home for a little while, and all of a sudden, my eyes start turning worse. So we’re putting compresses on it and we’re trying to calm down whatever was going on. And then it gets so bad that it feels like somebody has a knife in my eyeball repeatedly. So we go to the emergency room

and we’re at the emergency room, and they’re doing all this crap to my eye and they’re all like, looking at it and poking at it with q-tips and stuff. So they’re like yeah, we don’t know what’s wrong with you, but you’re fine go home, say go home, and it’s still in miserable, terrible pain. Anyway, we went to the ophthalmologist today turns out I have a corneal abrasion. God only knows how, probably did it to myself.

Unknown Speaker 3:06
somehow interconnected, at least in that when I moved my good eye it still hurts my bad eye right now. So, long story short, I’ve been blind for the weekend.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
I have a question How did a team of ER professionals miss a scratch on your cornea?

Unknown Speaker 3:06
Well, you see, I don’t know.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
I see, you don’t!

Emily Ladau 3:06
All right, correct. Sorry.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
Yeah.

Emily Ladau 3:06
Right. Oh, the jokes. Um, I wish I knew because I’m really annoyed because that screwed my whole weekend. Well, I mean, it’s not really their fault.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:06
Yeah, I hate when I temporarily go blind over the weekend. It really ruins things.

Emily Ladau 3:08
somehow interconnected, at least in that when I moved my good I it still hurts my bad i right now. So long story short, I’ve been blind for the weekend.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:20
I have a question. How did a team of er professionals Miss scratching your cornea?

Emily Ladau 3:25
Well, you see, I don’t know. I see. You don’t all right. Correct. Sorry. Yeah, right. Oh, the jokes. Um, I wish I knew because I’m really annoyed because that screwed my whole weekend. Well, I mean, it’s not really their fault.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:39
Yeah, I hate when I temporarily go blind over the weekend, it really ruins.

Emily Ladau 3:44
But it got me thinking as everything in my life always does about disability. And I was thinking about how this was basically, and still is some kind of forced

And the moral of that story is that I am still not in support of simulations because honestly, I have learned nothing from this about what it is really like to be blind. And I feel like this is just lending further proof to my beliefs that simulation accomplished nothing. Because all weekend I have just felt so helpless and useless and I can’t do things for myself.

Kyle Khachadurian 3:59
Also, I mean, I agree with you i think the emphasize exercises are really stupid and simulation exercises are also really stupid. But I… I think there’s a difference between like voluntarily signing up for one and being thrust into one because you scratch your corneas.

Emily that has nothing to do with your blindness that’s because you’re disabled also.

Emily Ladau 3:59
simulation. And the moral of that story is that I am still not in support of simulations, because honestly, I have learned nothing from this about what it is really like to be blind. And I feel like this is just lending further proof to my beliefs that simulation accomplished nothing. Because all weekend, I have just felt so helpless and useless. And I can’t do things for myself,

Kyle Khachadurian 4:30
Emily, that has nothing to do with your blindness. That’s because you’re disabled also. All also, I mean, I agree with you. I think the emphasize exercises are really stupid. And simulation exercises are also really stupid. But I I think there’s a difference between like voluntarily signing up for one and being thrust into one because you scratch your corneas.

Emily Ladau 4:51
Oh, totally. But this is as close as I’m going to get because I don’t believe in doing them in the first place. And all I know is that I

idea what it’s actually like to be a blind person because I haven’t been adapting, I’ve just been whining like a little b**** this weekend.

Oh, totally but this is as close as I’m going to get because I don’t believe in doing them in the first place. And all I know is that I have no

Kyle Khachadurian 5:07
I mean, I don’t know, either, but I feel like if you spontaneously lost your sight, you’d be doing that for a day or two.

Emily Ladau 5:13
For more than a day or two Sure, like I, you know, I think it just made me realize that,

Like, if someone breaks their leg, and they have to use the wheelchair, like a short amount of time is not enough time to adapt and figure out the emotional nuances and complexity. It’s enough to put you in an incredibly bad mood, and be all was me and learn absolutely nothing about the real day to day experiences of someone who has a particular type of disability that you are temporarily experiencing.

Kyle Khachadurian 5:49
I was gonna say the same thing, I think I mean, I’ve never done one of these, but I would assume that it would make you kind of pissed off and angry. And you come out of it

Huh, the world is inaccessible. You come out of it like, Huh, I’m glad that’s over, f*** those guys.

Emily Ladau 5:59
Honestly, yeah. And this is not me being ableist.

like, if someone breaks their leg and they have to use the wheelchair, like, a short amount of time is not enough time to adapt and figure out the emotional nuances and complexity. It’s enough to put you in an incredibly bad mood, and be all woe is me and learn absolutely nothing about the real day to day experiences of someone who has a particular type of disability that you are temporarily experiencing.

Kyle Khachadurian 5:59
I was gonna say the same thing, I think, I mean, I’ve never done one of these, but I would assume that it would make you kind of pissed off and angry, and you come out of it. Not being like

I’m not being funny either. Like, I really think that’s what’s going to happen if you do it for like less than I don’t know some really long amount of time that no one would want to do it.

Unknown Speaker 5:59
Yeah, it’s just ugh, God. But the point is I’m not pretending over here, but this really sucks. And I can’t go around being like, Oh yeah, I was blind for a weekend so I get it. No, I’m just cranky and annoying. I don’t actually understand what your experiences are like.

Kyle Khachadurian 5:59
being like, hmm, the world is inaccessible. You come out of it like, Huh, I’m glad that’s over those guys.

Emily Ladau 6:07
Honestly, yeah. And not me being able.

Kyle Khachadurian 6:11
I’m not being funny either. Like, I really think that’s what’s going to happen. If you do it for like less than I don’t know, some really long amount of time that no one want to do it.

Emily Ladau 6:19
Yeah, it’s just God. But the point is, I’m not pretending over here. But this really sucks. And I can’t go around being like, Oh, yeah, I was blind for a weekend. So I get it. No, I’m just cranky and annoying. I don’t actually understand what your experiences are like,

Kyle Khachadurian 6:36
I don’t understand what you’re experiencing right now either because cranky and annoyed is your default state.

Emily Ladau 6:41
Right? But like

Right, but like, extra cranky and annoyed

Kyle Khachadurian 6:42
Jesus.

I don’t understand what you’re experiencing right now either because cranky and annoyed is your default state.

Emily Ladau 6:42
Take my default state and quadruple it.

extra for a team, my boss dating quite true. But

Kyle Khachadurian 6:51
Jesus.

Emily Ladau 6:53
All I’m saying is, this is unintentionally reaffirming my belief that simulate

They’re terrible idea because you’re just never going to actually understand a person’s life experience. And if you’re in a wheelchair for a weekend, you ain’t gonna understand mine. If I’m struggling to see for a weekend, I ain’t understand yours, it just doesn’t work.

Kyle Khachadurian 7:15
Not for that amount of time. I think like, hypothetically, if you gave a person a long enough time scale, that they could sort of begin to understand what it would be like I don’t know what that amount of time would be, but certainly not over a weekend.

Not for that amount of time. I think like hypothetically, if you gave a person a long enough time scale, that they could sort of begin to understand what it would be like I don’t know what that amount of time would be, but certainly not over a weekend.

Emily Ladau 7:29
Yeah, like I had a friend who had a project in college where she had to use a wheelchair for a day and try to get around on public transportation. And she told me she got so fed up trying to get on the Washington DC Metro, that she stood up and lifted the chair over the gap.

Kyle Khachadurian 7:48
Wait, the Washington DC Metro is like the most ideal place to do that.

Wait, the Washington DC Metro is like the most ideal place to do that.

Emily Ladau 7:52
Yep, yep. Yeah.

And I was like, you’re annoyed?! Try living my life. And then I was like,

And I was like, you’re annoyed. Try living my life. And then I was like, Yeah, I see. You’re not getting the point here. Because first of all, I don’t want you to feel bad for me. I just want you to be mad at the system.

Kyle Khachadurian 8:07
I have a friend who occasionally like just as a joke, not a joke, like it’s a serious thing. But in jest, hosts these blind movie nights, she’s blind, that that I say that I have a friend who’s blind who occasionally posts who occasionally hosts these blind movie nights where like, they’ll watch a movie. And like, as soon as it starts, you have to put a blindfold on if you can see. And then you can’t take it off until after the credits are over, even if you have to pee. And she does that, just to show people the importance of audio description. Um, but it ends up being funny for everyone who can see. And meanwhile she’s the one getting the last laugh, but I something like that, to me wouldn’t necessarily count as an exercise so much as it is, you know, jokes amongst friends, I don’t really know how useful that would be is like a practical application of what it is to be blind.

Emily Ladau 8:58
I mean, it’s kind of making you think of bird box. And now everyone was doing the bird box challenge.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:03
Okay, that challenge was stupid. But that movie was great. Fight me.

Emily Ladau 9:06
I actually haven’t seen it. So I have no idea.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:06
I don’t think… I don’t think you’d like it. It’s not your kind of movie. I was mainly talking to the people.

Emily Ladau 9:06
I mean, and now I feel like I’m gonna have people come after me and be like, are now you’re an expert on simulations, because you were blind for a weekend. And it’s like, no, that’s really not my point here.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:06
No, but I think I think that there’s some validity to that, because that’s how long a simulation would last anyway. I mean, you’d have to do a few of them. But I would say after a few of them. You are an expert and why simulations are bad.

Emily Ladau 9:06
Yeah, it’s not like I’m saying I’m an expert in blindness.

Kyle Khachadurian 9:06
But there’s a point isn’t it?

Emily Ladau 9:53
Yeah, I just I have always wanted to talk about simulations on the podcast anyway, because I feel really strongly against them. And I always have. And this just sort of unintentionally is affirming the fact that rather than a feeling of empathy, it’s just evoked this feeling of helplessness because like, I was eating a bowl of pasta, and then I realized there were only a few pieces of pasta left, but I couldn’t find them with my fork. So I had to ask my dad to help me find the pasta. And I was like, I just feel like a helpless blob. And that’s not how blind people are.

Kyle Khachadurian 10:34
You are though that you are not you are a helpless blob, whether or not you’re blind.

Emily Ladau 10:34
And it’s the same thing with like, being in a chair, where it’s like you’re in a chair for a weekend. You know, I’m not suddenly a helpless blob because I’m sitting down. I’m a helpless blob because I’m lazy, but, you know,

Kyle Khachadurian 10:34
Disability be damned, that has nothing to do with it!

Emily Ladau 10:34
I just gah! Simulations annoy me. And I think leave it to me to take a random one and a gazillion chance of scratching my own eyeball out to turn it into a podcast episode. But you know me everything’s about disability.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:25
How do I know you didn’t do this on purpose for that sweet, sweet content?

Emily Ladau 11:29
You’re right. I did. I do a lot of things for the content. Like injure myself miserably.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
How did you even… how itchy was your eye?

Emily Ladau 11:36
I think maybe there was an eyelash in it or something. And then I just rubbed my eye into oblivion. Yep. Going through life with one eye open. Except neither eyes opened right now. I realized podcasting is the thing I can do without seeing.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
You really couldn’t put that together before?

Emily Ladau 11:36
Nope.

That’s where we’re at!

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
Maybe you did need the simulation exercise!

Emily Ladau 11:36
This should not be called simulation. I think this should be called Emily’s life is a mess.

Kyle Khachadurian 11:36
I’m calling it Story Time 4 for which is probably much better than Toy Story 4 which I haven’t seen yet. But I heard it was bad.

Emily Ladau 11:36
Terrible. It was not good. Let’s just put it this way. We had an eight year old with us, my eight year old neighbor. And she kept standing up every like five minutes and being like how much minutes is left? How much minutes is left?

Kyle Khachadurian 12:41
Oh, wow. That doesn’t bode well.

Emily Ladau 12:44
Yeah, yeah. It’s like you know, it’s bad if

you’re exact intended audience is like, this is weird.

Although speaking of disability stuff, man, my mom was not happy with Toy Story 4 she was so not happy you within that she tweeted about it all by herself.

Kyle Khachadurian 12:47
What on earth, do I even want to know?

Emily Ladau 13:06
So apparently, and I agree with her, she thinks that it sends the message that if you’re defective, no one will love you. Because there’s this whole premise with a toy that has a broken little voice box. And she believes that that’s the reason why no one has taken her off the shelf because her voice box doesn’t work.

Kyle Khachadurian 13:29
Then they already do that with the penguin and Toy Story 2? They really are running out of ideas.

Emily Ladau 13:29
They shouldn’t have made a fourth one. But anyway, my mom was so salty. She do eat it all by herself. That’s really

Kyle Khachadurian 13:29
That’s really funny

Emily Ladau 13:29
Just to complain that Toy Story for perpetuating the message that you can’t be loved if you’re defective, which honestly not a great message. But then somebody got real real mad at her on Twitter and was like, No, it’s sending a message that organ donation is a good thing.

Kyle Khachadurian 13:29
I don’t think it’s… I haven’t seen it yet. So I might be completely wrong, but that seems a little bit too weird for Pixar.

Emily Ladau 13:29
It is because a bunch of creepy dolls corner Woody and knock him out and steal his voice box. But Yep, organ donation.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:19
Spoilers! Jesus.

Emily Ladau 14:21
Okay, other content warning Toy Story 4 spoilers.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:21
We really have to like, put that up there. Um,

Emily Ladau 14:21
It’s not a good movie doesn’t matter!

Kyle Khachadurian 14:21
Yeah. Well, I don’t know. But, Emily, I just got to tell you. I’m like, this is the funniest thing I’ve heard all month.

Emily Ladau 14:41
Oh, you’re welcome.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:42
Yeah, thank you for scratching your cornea is it really means a lot to me.

Emily Ladau 14:46
I’m in so much pain. I’m glad you enjoy it.

Kyle Khachadurian 14:48
No, I don’t, I don’t like that. I don’t even like the fact that you’re blind. I just like all the stuff that are that is happening to you because of at all.

Yeah, yeah.

Emily Ladau 15:06
Yeah, I’ve just been knocking things over and spilling things and being a general mass didn’t realize I do that when I can see. So

Not much is different.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:06
Except it’s a lot darker in here. We have a lot of blind fans, they’re gonna be pissed at us?

Emily Ladau 15:15
I hope that they know that this is all in jest. And that honestly, it’s more just me recounting and experience.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:23
I’m sure, they’re all decent people.

Emily Ladau 15:26
And if they do get mad at me, then I sincerely apologize.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:31
She’s just not used to this.

Emily Ladau 15:34
Right. But then again, like somebody using a wheelchair, or who wears noise cancelling headphones, and earplugs for a weekend is also not used to it, and it’s not going to get anything practical or useful out of it. The only simulation exercise that I think ever really proved a point to me, was drunk driving.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Oh see, I was gonna say smoking where they make you like breathe through a straw.

Emily Ladau 15:57
What I’ve never had to do that.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Have to? you don’t have to.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Like I never had to do that in like a health class or anything.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Oh, they made us do it. It was like I mean, I never ever wanted to smoke cigarettes or pretty much anything else. But like that would. That would have made me change my mind. I think if I was one of those kids that really wanted to do that.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Although is that then… Even though it’s supposed to be about smoking, ableist, in a sense, because there are people who do have breathing disabilities that have nothing to do with smoking.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
I mean, technically,

I suppose. But I think it’s different. Because this is something where it’s like, Look, if you do this, you will end up this way. Whereas if it’s a disability, it’s probably something that you either were born with or have had for a while. So it’s, I don’t think it’s in the same… I think the context matters, but yeah, I suppose you’re technically correct. Sure.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Maybe she’s born with it. Maybe it’s… emphysema

Kyle Khachadurian

Oh, that’s a good one. That’s that’s the Instagram clip for this.

Emily Ladau

You shouldn’t let me talk when I’m in pain, you really shouldn’t.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Well, it was your idea to do this episode, Emily.

Emily Ladau 15:57
Yep, you’re right. It was.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Oh, my goodness,

Emily Ladau 15:57
Al that talk of smoking made me thirsty. Anyway.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Yeah, that’s a normal reaction,

Emily Ladau 15:57
drunk driving simulation. So I think I did that when I was in health class in middle school, I may give you the goggles,

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Right.

Emily Ladau 15:57
To simulate drunk night driving. And I was using my Walker at the time. And I tried to get my Walker in between like a pole in the classroom, and the teachers desk, and I smashed right into the pole. And I was like, This is why you don’t drive drunk.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
That is…

Emily Ladau 15:57
and that was like, very effective.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
Yeah, that would do it.

Emily Ladau 15:57
I feel like that’s maybe the only useful simulation I can really think of.

Kyle Khachadurian 15:57
But I feel like, okay, so I’m not going to defend them. Because I don’t like them either. But like, for all I know, sitting in a wheelchair for a weekend, or I mean, I don’t think that’s enough time at all. But like, for all I know, that could have an effect on someone that the drunk driving thing had on you. Except in that situation, I would say… I mean, I’m imagining it not sending the message that this isn’t how you want to live your life. And instead of being optimistic, and assuming that somebody realizes how inaccessible the world is, but for all that, you know, for all anyone knows, that could maybe have touched the person at some point. I don’t know. I still don’t like them though.

Emily Ladau 18:41
Okay, I have thought about that. And I do know that sometimes, that is the takeaway. What are you going to do with that takeaway is my question.

Kyle Khachadurian 18:52
Yeah. But I mean, that’s not really up to you. It’s up to the person.

What do we want time travel? What do we want? It doesn’t matter! I see your point. I do. But like, if you’re someone… I think what you’re talking about works for a certain kind of people. I think the people who need empathy exercises and simulation exercises and all that stuff that we all like that we’re all hating on right now. Those people are so far removed from your mere existence, that they literally can’t comprehend how someone like you might live, so to say, Oh, I don’t need you to be aware of me. I need access to like, Yeah, that’s true. But the people who need those exercises aren’t people who can give you access because they don’t even know about you. And I don’t mean you, Emily. I mean, like people like us at all. So those for those people, I think awareness is very important. But also, I would say there’s a bajillion in one ways to do to do awareness better than Hey, sit in this wheelchair for weekend. So…

Emily Ladau 24:38
Right, but I’m saying, What are you hoping to accomplish? What are simulation exercises both to accomplish, because they’re often meant to accomplish empathy. But the thing is, I don’t want empathy. I want access. And I suppose best case scenario for simulation exercise would be if you were simulating a particular disability while being accompanied by someone who actually had that disability. And you sort of learned some of the ins and outs of where they hit access issues. And maybe when you’re done let’s say, You’re like a business owner or something, you use it to sort of fix those pain points around your business. So then I can see that being practical. But I feel like if anything is just evokes this reaction of man, I feel bad for that person. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Yeah, I mean, simulation, the simulation exercises that you that you’ve described in the one that I described to with the smoking like, those are all meant to deter you from doing the thing that they’re demonstrating. Yeah, what does it say, if like you’re doing that, you know, if your version of that is wearing a blindfold, or plugging your ears or sitting in a wheelchair?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Exactly, it’s just been some kind of a message that this is bad. And I remember back in college, when I really started to become uncomfortable with the idea of simulations. Um, one thing that really got me was a girl who was a Resident Advisor in my dorm, asked if she could borrow my wheelchair for simulation exercise. For like an obstacle course. I was like, Oh, you want to borrow my very expensive piece of medical equipment to do your little exercise? No.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
See, to me, though, see, that’s the kind of person that like needs it, right, because that person is so dense that they don’t even realize that that’s your, that’s your method of ambulation, your or of mobility, not ambulation,

Emily Ladau 24:39
I told her to go to health services and use one of their wheelchairs or whatever. But then I thought about it some more. And I realized that I don’t want people doing an obstacle course to try to understand what my life is like, because that’s a very limited and not an all nuanced understanding of my experience.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Your life is totally an obstacle course.

Emily Ladau 24:39
Of course it is. But like they don’t need to know that.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
But they would if they did it!

See this is what it is, it has nothing to do with like or dislike, you just don’t want them to know that this is an accurate representation of what it’s like to be you.

Emily Ladau 24:39
You’re right, I want them to live with an air of mystery around me. But it also bothered me, I remember. I guess this kind of harkens back to the drunk driving simulation. So uh, at my college Disability Awareness Week was juxtaposed with Alcoholism Awareness Week. So like, there was Alcoholism Awareness Week on the calendar, and then the week after with Disability Awareness Week, and I’ve talked to a couple people who do consider alcoholism a disability. So I’ve kind of had to think through my argument about this a little bit. But, um, the larger point that I wanted people to realize is that disability is not something that you need to go have fixed, or that is a problem in the same way that alcoholism is. And I was not comfortable, like that juxtaposition.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Me neither. That’s a little bit weird. And by a little bit, I mean extreme. Like, that’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s sort of like subconscious, like not in the literal sense, but like, you’re sort of like oh, so what they’re just two weeks next to each other, right? But like, you don’t know what kind of impression seeing that. If you’re someone who’s like, impressionable, and young would think, who knows?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Not to mention, I don’t want you to be aware of me. I mean, I do? But not like that?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
What do you want?

Emily Ladau 24:39
access? When do you want it? Now!

Yeah, like, I don’t know, maybe have an actual conversation with me

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
No, they can’t do that. Don’t be ridiculous.

Emily Ladau 24:39
You’re right. That’s that was a silly suggestion. Have we really never talked about this before on the podcast?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
No. But you know what? Nothing like going blind to spark up a good old brainstorming meeting.

Emily Ladau 24:39
Ugh, this is honestly like the most distracted I’ve been from the pain pretty much all weekend. So I’m grateful for it. Even if people think this is just a hot mess of an episode.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
I you know,

I don’t think it’s a hot mess of episode just like a mess like a Marie Kondo situation needs to happen. But that’s what editing is for.

Emily Ladau 24:39
I mean, the thing about Marie Kondo is that you’re supposed to decide if it sparks joy. And this episode sparks joy.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
But does your corneal scratch spark joy?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Nope.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Well,

Emily Ladau 24:39
And neither does our garbage trash health care system. Because…

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Where did that come from?!

Emily Ladau 24:39
How did urgent care and the emergency room miss this?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
I mean, maybe they have corneal screatches too! I have no idea. Yeah, I went there. I made a disability joke.

Emily Ladau 24:39
Oh, man. Yeah. Healthcare is terrible. Everything’s terrible. My eyeball hurts. Do you have any stories you’d like to share?

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Which which which eye is it?

Emily Ladau 24:39
it’s the left eye.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
I don’t don’t know why, it doesn’t matter

Emily Ladau 24:39
Left Eye Lopez right with that person.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Yeah, is she dead?

Emily Ladau 24:39
Lisa Left Eye Lopez Is that it? She was on NSYNC song.

Kyle Khachadurian 24:39
Yeah, she was. That’s exactly the only reason I know her. I don’t even remember the song. I just remember what a ridiculous name that is.

Emily Ladau 26:45
Space Cowboy.

Kyle Khachadurian 26:47
Oh.

Yeah.

Emily Ladau 26:51
Which is a great song actually.

Kyle Khachadurian 26:53
Yeah.

No, I I actually don’t have any story. At least not one to compete with that.

Emily Ladau 27:04
Why not? Why am I always the one who has all the story? That’s not true.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:08
Yeah. It’s not true, but…

Today you are. I’ve never scratch my corneas.

Emily Ladau 27:16
I don’t recommend it.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:20
Based on

Emily Ladau 27:21
It really hurts

Kyle Khachadurian 27:21
Based on what you’ve told me it sounds like a bad time.

Emily Ladau 27:24
would not recommend

at all.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:31
Oh just so you know, just so you know, I mean, you guys can’t see us, pun fully intended. But Emily is sitting in a completely, what looks to me like a pitch dark room. And I am not. So just

Emily Ladau 27:47
Oh yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:47
Her her injury is real. Allegedly.

Emily Ladau 27:52
It’s real allegedly? Thanks, Kyle.

Kyle Khachadurian 27:54
Well, I mean, I don’t know for all I know, you could be sitting there in the dark, just like oh, yeah, my cornea’s scratched. Sure it is, is I just didn’t, I forgot to turn the light switch on.

Emily Ladau 28:02
Oh, would you like my medical records?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:04
No, I don’t know. No, no, I don’t need your medical records your mom came in earlier. I know. It’s real.

Please.

Emily Ladau 28:13
My poor parents have been at my beck and call all weekend and I feel terrible. I don’t know that anybody else is gonna listen to this episode, but it was very therapeutic for me.

Kyle Khachadurian 28:25
I don’t know. I thought I think it was pretty funny.

Emily Ladau 28:29
Um, do we have final takeaways for this nonsense?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:35
Yeah, I’m gonna try really hard not to scratch my corneas

Emily Ladau 28:37
Oh my god. Yes. Safety first everyone. Wait, I can’t see the screen. How long have we been going?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:42
Just about long enough? 33 minutes?

Emily Ladau 28:45
What we’ve been talking for

30 minutes?

Kyle Khachadurian 28:49
Yeah.

How long did it feel like?

Emily Ladau 28:53
I truly have no concept of time right now.

Kyle Khachadurian 28:57
My God, you lose your sight for five minutes. And you can’t even it’s only been five minutes. You know that right? You scratched your cornea five minutes ago.

Emily Ladau 29:04
Yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian 29:05
And you don’t even know how long a half hour is! What is wrong with you?!

Emily Ladau 29:13
I’ve been sitting with my headphones plugged into my phone, listening to Bon Appetit videos on YouTube all day And alternately waking up and falling asleep.

Kyle Khachadurian 29:24
It’s either been five minutes or five years. I mean, because these corneas I really can’t tell you which one.

Emily Ladau 29:32
No, I mean, I’m being very dramatic. Like I’ve been able to open my eyes for like, a hot minute just to get a glimpse at something

Kyle Khachadurian 29:42
Is one of your eyes gross looking right now? Like is there like a…?

Emily Ladau 29:44
Yeah, it’s really… it looks like a red spider web.

Kyle Khachadurian 29:47
Oh, that’s awesome. That is so great.

Emily Ladau 29:55
I would like to thank the good people out in the land of the internet for adults this episode.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:02
I would like to thank Emily for being a good sport.

Emily Ladau 30:10
I would also like to say that my final takeaway is stop it with the simulations. They don’t make any sense. They don’t work. I don’t know a damn thing about being blind.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:21
Anyway, my final takeaway is Yeah, empathy exercises suck. I mean, I’m sure you all knew that. But like, it’s about time we did an episode on those. And uh…

Emily Ladau 30:31
Yeah, don’t do it

Kyle Khachadurian 30:32
Try not to scratch your cornea.

Emily Ladau 30:34
Yeah. Oh my god. Please take care of your eyeballs.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:38
You only got two of them. Unless you don’t, in which case you only have as many as you have. Good night, everybody.

Emily Ladau 30:45
Thanks for listening.

Kyle Khachadurian 30:47
And might we say you look good today. Actually, I have no idea how Emily looks today today, because I can’t see her. And she can’t see me either.

So…

But, you know what? One thing’s for sure though. You definitely look good today.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Emily Ladau
This episode is sponsored by Clip Different.

Kyle Khachadurian
The Clip Different Pro is a revolutionary first of its kind automatic fingernail clipper that safely trims fingernails with the simple touch of a button.

Emily Ladau
And the transcript for this episode is sponsored by SeamlessDocs.

Kyle Khachadurian
SeamlessDocs

is an E-signature and form automation platform that enables governments to go paperless and deliver better online services to citizens and staff.

Emily Ladau
Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian
And I’m Kyle Khachadurian.

Emily Ladau
And you’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian
What are we going to talk about today? Emily, can you believe

we did that in one take?

Emily Ladau
Boy, we never ever get through our intro. It’s usually like the third time. By the time you all hear us. But we did it. High five, up top, *high five noise*

Kyle Khachadurian
Almost like we’re professionals. I know I’ll just edit a sound effect, I don’t know why I made one myself.

Emily Ladau
Anyway, so what are we gonna talk today? We’re going to talk about assistive and adaptive and accessible technology. And the impetus for this particular episode topic is our fantastic sponsor, Clip Different. For real though, we’re excited because Clip Different reached out to us. And they were like, Hey, we have this really cool contraption. I don’t think they said it like that. But you know, I’m paraphrasing here that people can use to clip their fingernails if they do not have the ability to use a traditional fingernail clipper. And I, always the skeptic, am like, No, you don’t show me that. And they did. They showed us that. And it’s now the only thing I used to clip my nails. Not even kidding.

Kyle Khachadurian
It is seriously a game changer. Like I was so skeptical. No offense Clip Different guys, that this wasn’t going to work as they intended or as as what they said it was but I got it in the mail. It was like oh, my goodness, it really works.

Emily Ladau
Well, I think this actually goes to show that we wouldn’t just put any product as a sponsor of the show.

Kyle Khachadurian
No, we said that from day one that we would never do that unless we use it and liked it ourselves. But like, it just seems strange to me, like out of everything that this accessible nail clipper would be like the coolest thing. I don’t know, it was just cool that it works.

Emily Ladau
It’s really cool. And my hobby is taking a picture of the little drawer full of nail clippings when I’m done and sending it to Kyle

Kyle Khachadurian
Little does she know I’m actually creating a little photo album out of them. And this Hanukkah, I’m going to send it to her.

Emily Ladau
Honestly, that’s an art form. And right now I have blue nail polish on my nails. So I’ll send you the blue nail clippings. It’ll be incredible.

Kyle Khachadurian
This is the most greatest day of my life.

Emily Ladau
Anyway, so if we haven’t totally grossed you out, the reality is that everybody needs to clip their nails, right? Unless you don’t have fingernails, is that a thing? I hope we’re not being ableist here. I’m being serious.

Kyle Khachadurian
Well, I mean, if you don’t have fingernails, you probably don’t want to figure it out clever. But you can also probably appreciate the coolness factor of it anyway.

Emily Ladau
Right. Well, okay, I guess, if you’re an amputee, this is perhaps not the market for you. But the point is, adaptive technology is something that can benefit everyone, and maybe not so much the technology itself, but the mindset is what’s really important. It’s that mindset of, Okay, here’s something that you have to do, but you may not be able to do it in the conventional or prescribed way. So what can we do to take technology and turn it into something that makes your life a little bit easier.

Kyle Khachadurian
We always say that like people with disabilities, the original life hackers, as a sort of a quip for the fact that we have had to adapt to things since the moment that we were born. And it’s so nice to me. And it’s interesting to it’s not just nice, but it’s really cool to see that same mindset in a product that I mean, frankly, I would never have thought, a nail clipper of all things which goes to show you like that we all still have like, well, I’m speaking for myself, but that we all have like, biases for some reason, because I-I’m still stuck on that. And meanwhile, when I think about it, it’s like, well, why can’t the nail clipper be adaptive? The answer is there is no answer. Of course it can. And they’ve made it.

Emily Ladau
And there’s so many products in my life that I would love to see adopted. I’m not even sure that any are particularly coming to mind right now. But I think that just goes to show that so many things are so ingrained in your life. If somebody had asked me what product do you need adapted? I don’t think I would have been like nail clipper. Seriously!

Kyle Khachadurian
No, me neither!

Emily Ladau
Also, it really does work for me, especially because my motor skills are not that great. I’m very, very good at cutting my fingernails really deep, or pulling the cuticles and being a bloody mess when I’m done. Sorry, this is so gross.

Kyle Khachadurian
It is gross. But I think that you’re being very relatable right now. Because I do the same thing.

Emily Ladau
I gotta tell you the next innovation that I need in my life is clip different toe.

Kyle Khachadurian
Hear that, guys?

Emily Ladau
I want some of the cuts of that profit. But for real. Now that we have the fingernail situation solved, can we just talk about how I can’t actually reach my toes?

Kyle Khachadurian
What?

Emily Ladau
I really can’t reach them.

Kyle Khachadurian
I learned so many new things about you. Every time we do an episode, I used to think I knew everything about you. And every time we record, I learned something new. I mean, now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense.

Emily Ladau
So yeah, so I have arm contractors. And both my arms only extend out to 90 degrees, guess I’m giving a visual description for the people who don’t really know me. And then when I put my shoes on, I can reach to put my shoes on. But I cannot get in a position that would be safe or simple for me to clip my toenails. And so these basic body care things that I would like to do independently, I rely on other people, which there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, because lots of people need care in various forms. And so for me, toenail clippings is a form of care that I need. In my dream world, I would be able to do it myself.

Kyle Khachadurian
You know what you need? Like 10 clip differents, and like 10 mini clip differents for your toes. And you just like, assume that position, and it’s all done in like 30 seconds.

Emily Ladau
I feel like I want a giant machine that will do that. Yeah, that’s what I want.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah. It’s so funny, because I told a friend of mine with CP about the Clip Different. And it was so… it was one of those things that the universe lined up. And she was like, man, I really wish I had a way to cut my fingernails. Well, and I we had just, we had just gotten done doing the interview that you guys are about to hear. And I was like, do I have their product for you. And I think she bought one. Yeah.

Emily Ladau
I mean, now what I really want. And I suppose this is me not so subtly asking for sponsors. But more to the point, forget the sponsorship, I really just want people to reach out with useful adaptive products and be like, Hey, we actually want to make your life easier.

Kyle Khachadurian
And that’s another reason why we liked or loved the Clip Different guys, because that is exactly what they did. They were like, We have this really cool thing, you guys have a really cool podcast, you should tell your audience about our really cool thing. And you can tell everything about it. It’s just this huge labor of love. And it even has a little section on the website for like all different kinds of disabilities, and why the Clip Different works for that particular kind. They really put a lot of heart and soul into it.

Emily Ladau
And you’ll hear in the interview. Also, the gentleman who invented this tool does not identify as having a disability. And he does have a lot of experience, personal experience with people in his life who identify or identified as having disabilities. And so I know that people in the disability community tend to get a little bit concerned when someone without a disability is like, hey, I’ve got something that’s going to make your life easier. But at the same time, when I really appreciated about Clip Different is they’re clearly testing it with actual disabled people. They didn’t just like put it out on the market and say, hey, disabled people, we solved the problem for you.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, and you’ll hear in the interview to that, I mean, we’re not going to spoil anything, because we want to surprise you guys, but you’ll hear in the interview that they actually went back and redesigned part of it when like a new type of disability that they hadn’t thought of was like put in front of them. It’s super cool.

Emily Ladau
Yeah. So I mean, yes, we’re talking about a fingernail clipper. But I think the larger takeaway that we want people to have from this episode is really about inclusive and accessible design thinking in general, because wouldn’t it just be so exciting if everything was designed with accessibility in mind for the disability community? I mean, I realize that’s a tall order, but at the same time, I wish that there were simple tasks that were easier for me. I mean, quite frankly, the that I think about it, the more that I realize I do use adaptive equipment in my day to day life, like a thing that I call the “sock, putter onner”.

Kyle Khachadurian
I love that thing, that thing is genius.

Emily Ladau
Yeah. And I use a shoe horn sometimes. And I guess these things are probably more mainstream than an adopted nail clipping tool. But at the same time, I don’t want these products to have to be called adapted anymore.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, yeah.

It shouldn’t be special. I mean, I like that it is because this is just the world we live in. Like, I’m glad that it’s here. But universal design doesn’t just apply to buildings that have stairs in them, you know, it can be applied to everything that we consume, and everything that we use, and Clip Different is in a very unique position that it’s quote, unquote, just a fingernail clipper, but it really is one of it’s a great example, something that you can achieve that if you just thought about accessibility as part of the forefront of your design, because you don’t have to be disabled to use it. I mean, I passed it around my house. And you know, me and my parents all tried it out. And we all liked it, like they’re not disabled. But it’s just a great example of of what you can achieve when you really do think about accessibility first.

Emily Ladau
Yeah. And another point that I want to raise, because I know that there are also skeptics when it comes to development of these accessible and adaptive new technologies. One of my favorite writers, s.e smith wrote this article for Vox about how disabled people don’t always need all these fancy gadgets, we really just want accessibility to be built into the environment around us. And, you know, the crux of the article was really talking more about things like how everyone thinks that they’re the first one to invent the stair climbing wheelchair, and stuff like that, you know, and everybody wants to invent the next new big thing to help the disability community. And I do think that a lot of it is, you know, sort of unnecessary, because, I would prefer that the world just focused on building in access, rather than coming up with a ton of fancy new gadgets. But at the same time, within reason, I think that some gadgets are just very clever and very necessary. So it’s really a balance, like, I think there needs to be a balance of, yes, we’re going to work on creating this adaptive technology, but we’re also going to focus on making the world itself a more accessible place.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, I think that’s like a case by case basis thing, right? Like, it’s something as big as a building, you know, make the… adapt that to the world and make it accessible for everyone. But, something like a fingernail clipper, like, a fingernail clipper, that’s accessible is just a, you call it a gadget because it’s like, cool it it does something unconventionally, but a regular fingernail clipper’s, just, you know, it’s it’s about as much a gadget as, as the accessible and it’s just something that we take for granted, because it’s just something that like everybody uses.

Emily Ladau
Yeah, totally. And, you know, all of this is making me think of, you know, Barry Lewis on YouTube.

Kyle Khachadurian
Oh, yeah.

Emily Ladau
A guy who–

Kyle Khachadurian
My Virgin Kitchen.

Emily Ladau
Yeah, he, like, changed his name to Barry Lewis on YouTube. Now, if you look him up, but he does these really fun, kitchen gadget testing videos,

Kyle Khachadurian
That’s right!

Emily Ladau
at the beginning of every video, he’s like, now, before you say anything, or make fun of these, remember that some of these do legitimately help people with disabilities be more independent in the kitchen. And the first time I heard that, I was like, subscribe.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, I think I don’t. He used to not say that, and I think somebody pointed out to him, and it was just one of those things where he was like like, Oh, yeah, of course, he just had said it ever since.

Emily Ladau
Yeah. And those kitchen gadgets are probably the best example of gadgets that I don’t know, maybe you don’t need them. But they definitely do vastly improve and make more accessible kitchen experiences.

Kyle Khachadurian
And it’s a really good example of kind of what you’re talking about, too, because you know that to your average person who isn’t disabled, like, a lot of them are probably gimmicky. But given the circumstances, depending on what it is like for you or for me, it could make it could be the difference between us being able to make something and us not being able to make something.

Emily Ladau
Yeah, I love all of the fancy choppers and things that make it safer to handle blades because I’m not great with dexterity. And so I love that stuff. And I guess the nail clipper probably in a way relates to that too, because Clip Different has a blade inside of it, but it’s protected. So I can’t cut myself on it.

Kyle Khachadurian
We really tried. I really tried. I mean not not No, No, I’m serious. Because I not to like I didn’t willingly put my you know, it was just like, I just wanted to test it. Like, oh, you you call it safe. Okay, that’s like really put my finger. Wow, it really is safe.

Emily Ladau
Yeah. And I think that the biggest point I can make is that if we’re going with the kitchen gadget analogy here. So first of all, the kitchen needs to be accessible. So before you even get into the use of gadgetry in certain areas, yes, the kitchen itself needs to be accessible. But once you’ve made it into the kitchen, now it’s time to make that experience accessible. And so I think that there are different steps to accessibility. But I suppose that’s a bad way of putting it steps to accessibility. But hahaha, you get what I mean.

Kyle Khachadurian
I’m going to clip this for the Instagram clip. I think I just found it. Steps to accessability. That is the worst best thing. I love it. Oh, Emily.

Emily Ladau
Oops

Kyle Khachadurian
We always go too far in between recording sessions.

Anyway,

I think that’s about time while we get off these stairs of accessibility

Emily Ladau
Steps.

Kyle Khachadurian
Steps? Oh, excuse me. I think it’s about time now that we introduce you to Tom McMullen, the inventor of the Clip Different Pro.

Emily Ladau
We’re pretty big fans of him and we think you will be too.

Kyle Khachadurian
He’s so wholesome. Wait till you hear this guy.

Emily Ladau
We are very excited to have a special guest with us today to talk about something that we are huge fans of so special guests. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Tom McMullen
Sure, very special. Tom McMullen. And I created the Clip Different, automatic fingernail clipper.

Emily Ladau
So clip different reached out to us a little while back to share with us some information about their product. And Kyle and I being the slight tech nerds and adaptive technology geeks that we are were like, oh my gosh, yes, we totally want to find out more about this. So Clip Different was kind enough to send us the machines to test out and I have to say I’m a huge fan.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, so am I, works so good. Or so well.

Emily Ladau
So Tom, can you tell us a little bit about what the Clip Different is, what it does? And tell us a little bit about how you got the idea for it?

Tom McMullen
Sure. Sure.

I’m coming off of have a very great morning yesterday. Myself and a couple of their of our team people were at a walk, MS walk where they raise funds for MS. And there were thousands of people there. And we had a table in a banner and and let people know what we did. And there were so many people that came by and just said how would you have thought of this? They were just so surprised that at the simple this thing was and that that nobody had ever thought of it. And and how could I who I am very healthy and and have no disabilities of any kind other than the things that are hidden somewhere. And how could you have thought of this and, and so that always brings me back to early in my life. When my year and a half old sister came home from the hospital after being diagnosed with Polio. I was 10 years old. And I knew there were no there was no one in my family who was going to take responsibility for her recovery, her that gaining strength back in her leg that she was affected. And so I took responsibility. And every day I start the day out with having lifting her up in the dining room table and doing her exercises and stretching her leg and strengthening your leg. And that’s how we finish the day. And then I got to be with her and watch her go to school and have casts on her foot where she had various surgeries and whatever. So my whole life was was different than a lot of people’s. And when I was 19 I went on a date with Trudy and Trudy walk with a limp and I said Trudy, you’re limping. And she said yeah, he had Polio and I was a little girl and I walked with a limp. While when I went home and I told one of my sisters, Marcy, I said, I just met the girl I’m going to marry. And so Trudy and I got married four years later. And and, and we were married for 36 years before Trudy passed away. And it turned out when she was 32, through various medical things that happened, they found out that she really hadn’t had polio that she had a tumor in her spine from a very young age. And it was, it was causing all sorts of trouble with her leg and, and so the doctors at the Mayo Clinic, thought they could operate and take this out. And, and it turned out they couldn’t and they didn’t give her a long time to live and, and so she spent, well actually she lived 25 years after that. But she spent the first seven years after that surgery that she had major surgery, walking or walking with a cane and and doing the best she could and then after that she had to use a wheelchair. And so I was never her… was never, she was never dependent on me. And I was never dependent on her. I was her eyes were walking down the street somewhere and she was in a wheelchair, I’d be scanning what was ahead, so that so that she didn’t hit the big crack in the sidewalk, or somebody would come through the intersection on a bicycle, whatever it was, and I was her legs, you know, in the evening, maybe be home and she’d asked me to get something and pick it up and bring it to the bring it to her in a chair or whatever. And so that was her eyes and her in her legs. And, and so and so when I was 40 years old, I was in my office on the phone, and I got off the phone and I had to clip my fingernail and I clip my fingernail. And I looked at this fingernail clipper and I said, how do people with hand issues…? Not that my late wife had any hand issues, hers were with her legs. But how do people with hand issues cut their fingernails? And so, this idea came to me and I say the idea came to me because I didn’t get it, there’s no way I could have stuck with developing this product and spending as much time as it did. I spent 35 years developing this product and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I had no talent in my hand. So I had to hire everything done it I have an idea. And I go to a engineering company or go to a manufacturing people or somebody in the stamping business or, and, and I had to build models, I had people build models for me and I tried and tried and tried to build in this product and never got it to the point where I wanted it. And I was looking for products for people that were sightless. And people that had arthritis and, and, and even for infants where the mother would try to clip a baby’s fingernail and not cut their, their fingers. So I after so many years, I

I was remarried after four years after my wife passed away and my present wife’s son was at my house and and I had this fingernail clipper automated sitting on my kitchen table. And I said, David, I’ve been creating the same problem over and over. I’ve created a monster. Take a look at this and tell me what you think. And he walked over and looked at it. He said do it this way instead of that way. And within five seconds, I had the concept I had the Clip Different design in my mind. And and then we were a year to market before after that. And it was 35 years. Well, I say that the idea got ahold of me. And I just took it to its logical conclusion. It wasn’t me. And I was I walked into the into Whole Foods, one of the places I eat lunch about a year and a half ago, and there was a gentleman walking out and he had one arm. And I said, sir, how do you cut your fingernails? And he said, I can’t. He said my wife cuts him I said–, and he said I hate it. And I said I’m working on a product that will you’ll be able to cut your fingernails by yourself. And he looked at me and got real close to me and maybe even put his hand across his heart. And he said, why would you think of us? And I just told him I said all the story is so long. I’ve been thinking about these people for 35 years. And at one point, about two years before the whole foods guy or a year and a half before the whole foods guy when I got the ID on the clip different. I thought I know more about the underserved people in the fingernail clipping business than anybody in the country, anybody in the world I had been through and I tried it and I– done worked on products. And I thought if I don’t finish this, if I don’t bring this to market, who will? Tt’s up to me. And that’s how the Clip Different came about.

Emily Ladau
All we can say is that we are so glad that it did. And we love that story. I wish that you could have seen our faces as you were taking us on that journey.

Tom McMullen
Well, my face is full of sincerity when I go on that journey, because I just feel so blessed. When I meet the people, when I go to our website and see Cooper, who had he had bloody fingers and fingers were just sore and raw. And we met him at a at a little conference we did down in Rochester, Minnesota about four or five months ago, and Cooper’s parents bought him a finger–one of our Clip Different. And then three weeks later sent a video of Cooper using it and and he was sitting watching TV, clipping his fingernails with our with our Clip Different. And his he she said hold up, hold up your hands and show him your hands in his hands are all cleared up, cleaned up. I mean, he smiled. I mean, that carries me that fills me and, and so the that helps me be as absolute focus as I am to get this product to the people that could benefit from it.

Emily Ladau
Well, I have to tell you, I am the person who manages to clip her fingernails and cut too deep and start bleeding and pull a cuticle and make a giant mess. But I’ve been using Clip Different, no joke, since it was sent to me. And I’ve now used it probably three or four times. And every time I get so excited. And I send Kyle a picture of my clean fingernails and my little drawer full of fingernail clippings. And I’m like, look!

Kyle Khachadurian
yeah, it’s such an amazing product. Truly.

Tom McMullen
Emily, I’ve never seen anyone use our Clip Different Pro for the first time who didn’t get a smile on their face. So that is my… I’m trying to tell my team let’s pass out smiles. Let’s try to get as many people smiling as we can. So all saw a lot of smiles yesterday during this MS walk.

Emily Ladau
Well, if you have us smiling that is for sure. And we’re wondering if you can tell us some words of wisdom for other people who are looking to create adaptive technology and you know, bring something into the world that fills a void

Tom McMullen
for me, what am I having to say I was in the app, I went and bought a new phone

about a month ago, and the fellow working in the Apple Store waited on me and he happened to be a surprising he was probably gentlemen, maybe 65 or 67 years old. And I said, Gee, Isn’t this amazing? You’re, you know, the oldest person in the store next to me. And you get to be around all these young people and see the energy and feel this enthusiasm that they have and learn new things I say that sure says a lot about you that you’d be in here working. And so we got talking on personal levels, which I do with so many of the people I meet on my in my day. And and then he asked me what I did and what I was doing. And I told him about the Clip Different and I’d worked on it for 35 years, and he started crying a little bit. And and I said what, what’s the deal, he said, I’ve been working on a project on a product for 30 for 13 years. And he said, I just been kind of at the wit’s end of this and trying to figure out what to do and how to do it, whether I should quit or not. And he said, that was my day yesterday. And then you’re in here today. He said you worked on your, 35 years, he said, I just I’m so full of enthusiasm after talking to you. And he said, Thank you so much. And he sent me a nice email after that. And so it’s a it’s doing what’s right, you have to do what’s in your, in your conscience in your mind, you have to do, you have to do just do. And I say, I made so many mistakes with this product and with my life in many areas and whatever. But just getting up and doing something moving forward. And, and, and reaching out to others to have them help you discuss it with others when we so many of us, people, men and maybe 60% of the men maybe or some number like that, versus 40% of the women, we get these ideas and we run them in our through one ear and around our head and out the other ear and out our mouth. And we don’t consult with other people we don’t disclose we don’t trust, we think we have to do it. And then we gets stuck in whatever and get this anxiety because of it or whatever. I just think share with us. Ask others for help. Nobody’s going to steal your idea if they did, well, God bless them, let them go. Maybe it’s the right thing that happened. And, and that’s kind of how I did I went and trusted a lot of people, I reached out to an awful lot of talent around the Minneapolis St. Paul area. And people that were so much smarter than me and so much more creative and so much more detailed knowledge about tolerances and how metal worked and fatigue and sharpening blades and currents and all these things. I could never have done this without all the people–there’s a–I could put them on three school buses, that people that helped me bring this to fruition. And so that’d be one I don’t it just be more life lessons that I had talked to people about. You know, you you just do what you’re supposed to do and, and trust, just trust that things work out. Even if you’re stymied. You think I just need to get to the next level, just get it over a little hump. And all of a sudden it kind of opens up. Just like when I mentioned to my present wife’s son, David, David, you can’t solve a problem with the same mind that created it. I’ve been creating a monster, tell me what your thoughts are. And he did. And within seconds, the greatest product for people with some hand issues, issues in and being able to clip their own fingernails was created. Now, there’s more to that than just me doing it. So it’s it’s a collective effect of all the people that have carried me throughout this time. And my late wife she never one time discouraged me in all the years were married all the years that pushed us and the years when I we didn’t have any money and bills and come in every month for 2000, 3000, 5000, 200, whatever, whatever the bills were kept coming in. And she just looked at me and said I got another bill for that fingernail clipper. And she never once said to me maybe you should just give this up. Maybe you should stop this. I a lot of friends real close friends that laughed at me like McMullen, what’s new, you’re working on your fingernail clippers, my kids. They’ve tried out fingernail clippers just unbelievable throughout the years. And they stuck with it. Now two of them are in the business with me so

Kyle Khachadurian
Well we’re certainly not laughing. We love the idea and we love the product. And on that subject. Why is it important to include people with disabilities in your design in like the process of making that fingerprint– uh, fingernail clipper to you?

Tom McMullen
Why is it important that that this was that I was doing this for the people with with disabilities or people with some issues?

Kyle Khachadurian
No, no. Why was it important to include people with disabilities in your like design process?

Tom McMullen
Well, I don’t.

We had a How do you know what somebody’s going through? Unless you talk to ’em?

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, fair

enough.

Tom McMullen
We, we we have a person who is using our product and, Laura, and she wanted to write a story about us. And, and my son who was in the business said, Well, why don’t we meet and we’ll tell you she said okay, by the way, I’m a little person. Well, I never thought about my products for little people, I just never had any dealings with little people. So I wanted to meet also, I went to the lunch. And Laura could could clip her fingernails about 60% or 55% with our present model. And, and but there was some reasons that they didn’t work or fingers were arthritic, and her fingers had very curved fingernails, and there was all sorts of issues. And so it just I was just moved to be able to serve serve Laura and be able to help her with her issues. And so with that a day, I had changed some things and and created a model for specific for Laura, and got her a new product. And now she can clip at the time when she use it. She could clip 98% of her fingernails, only one she couldn’t get fully was her one of her little finger on her right hand. And that was because of little finger was just so arthritic, and the nail was just almost like a half circle. And she said, but I know if I practice that was her first time using it, I know, if I practice, I’ll be able to get it. And so if you don’t talk to Lauras of the world, how do you know what people need? And so every chance I had, I was at the Mayo Clinic for a physical and there were two sightless people standing there. And I walked up to him, and I said, I’d like to ask you a question. They said, Sure. I said, How do you? How do you guys cut your fingernails, and the guy pipe right up, he said, I, I can’t or he said my wife can’t she cuts herself all the time. He said, I help her. But it’s really tough. And he said, I can do mine. But I cut myself about a half the time or a third of the time. And I told him, I said, I’m working on a product for you that you’ll be able to cut your fingernails without worrying about cutting yourself. And they just looked at me like thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Emily Ladau
Well, Tom, I think and I’m sure I can speak on Kyle’s behalf here. We both think that you’re such a role model to the adaptive technology industry.

Kyle Khachadurian
Absolutely.

Emily Ladau
And we’re so grateful that you took the time to share your story with us and to tell us a little bit about the inspiration behind the work that you do. And so before we wrap up, is there anything that you would like to leave our listeners with?

Tom McMullen
I’m all for having help people have a good day and bring a smile to their face and bring a little joy and happiness. And one of the things I’ve learned and I see the energy look went to our website and looked at Mark in I think it’s a blog or one of our reviews or something. Mark bought one of these Clip Different Pros for his mother. And, and he gave it to her mother’s day or whatever the occasion was in our family members around. And you see the kids and the adults and whatever smiling and laughing and just having a good time with this product. And I just noticed that that’s the case. I’ve seen so many times where somebody has this on the dining room table. And it just brings smiles to everyone’s faces no matter if they have an issue trying to clip their fingernails or not. And so that’s one thing and then personally, we’ve had so many we’ve had we’ve had we on our website we have Gino, he’s a he’s a was was a paratrooper, and he had two catastrophic illness–injuries. And he can clip his own fingernails. Now if you look at I mean, you see tattooed muscle bound Gino, you think my goodness, that guy, he has no problem cutting his fingernails, he can’t so much as lift up a baby out of the crib, without being concerned about dropping or so. So he can cut his fingernails. And that’s just something we he wound up getting back by using one of our products. And so it’s it’s, it’s pretty interesting to get one of these and try it, it just it just turns you on your axis and leaves you freed up for another positive thing, another way to look around the corner and say what more is waiting for me that’s good? And so if that would people get that attitude, I just be very happy.

Emily Ladau
Well, we certainly have that attitude after chatting with you. So thank you so much for taking the time to give us some insight into your journey and for sharing your story. And we hope that people will be moved either to try the Clip Different or to push forward in developing adaptive tech that solves other problems that are out there right now. So thank you so much, Tom.

You bet Emily and you too, Kyle. Thanks. Have a good day.

Kyle Khachadurian
Thank you.

Emily Ladau
You too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Emily Ladau
The transcript for this episode was sponsored by SeamlessDocs.

Kyle Khachadurian
SeamlessDocs is an E-signature and form automation platform that enables governments to go paperless and deliver better online services to citizens and staff.

Emily Ladau
Hi, I’m Emily Ladau.

Kyle Khachadurian
And I’m Kyle khachadurian.

Emily Ladau
And you’re listening to another episode of The Accessible Stall.

Kyle Khachadurian
What are we going to talk about today, Emily?

Emily Ladau
When did you start doing that was such a rhythm to it.

Kyle Khachadurian
I just do it differently every time and hopes that no one would notice. But now you’ve called attention to it. And now everyone will notice.

Emily Ladau
And now it’s just weird and awkward.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yep. What are we talking about today?

Emily Ladau
So it’s actually been a while since we’ve recorded so we have a little bit of story time. And we’re going to talk a little bit about some media representation. And I’m sure it’s there’s probably some other fun things to pepper in there along the way. So I think it’s a good lineup.

Kyle Khachadurian
Nice. So do you want to start?

Emily Ladau
I mean, how does one even start with this story?

Kyle Khachadurian
Well, we were at a food festival. I don’t know. Do you remember the name of it. The uh…

Emily Ladau
It was like a food truck–

Kyle Khachadurian
It was a bunch of food trucks in a parking lot in New York City. And it was a festival. And Emily and I was there with her boyfriend. And we were having a grand old time. And we thought it would be best to divide and conquer. So while Emily and her boyfriend were getting disgusting chips and guac, I thought it would be great to get some ice cream. Now, unbeknownst to me, someone let Emily cut the line.

Emily Ladau
I feel like you’re not telling this story well anymore. You started off good, but now I have to take over.

Kyle Khachadurian
Go ahead.

Emily Ladau
Okay, so first of all, you missed the part where we divided and conquered. So like, Eli was also not there.

Kyle Khachadurian
Oh, I forgot he wasn’t there to this guy

Emily Ladau
that’s like central to the story. So basically, this guy comes up to me and is like, are you by yourself? And I’m just like, waiting for my guacamole. And I’m like, Yeah, I am. And then he said, Oh, do you want to join me in the line? I’m much further up in you. And so I was like, Are you sure? He was like Yeah. And so I joined him towards the front of the line. And I thought he was just taking pity on me because wheelchair.

And so he thinks the people behind me for letting me cut the line. And then all of a sudden Kyle

comes flailing over to me. Ice cream sundae in hand.

And rams a spoon of ice cream in my mouth.

Kyle Khachadurian
I very romantically fed it to you.

Emily Ladau
I don’t think that was how that went.

Kyle Khachadurian
It was not.

Emily Ladau
So jams a spoonful of ice cream into my mouth. And it’s like here taste this! And I’m like, oh, that, that’s delicious. And then two seconds later, Eli walks back over and I’m like, Hey babe, I’m this guy who just let me cut the line, like points at himself and kind of looks at me funny, and then looks at Eli funny, and then looks at you funny, and then gets the dirtiest angriest look on his face.

Kyle Khachadurian
Didn’t you say Oh, no, I’m not talking to you!

Emily Ladau
Yeah, yeah, I was like, I’m not talking to you. And then I was like, oh, and they’re not getting guacamole. Don’t worry, just me because I thought he was like mad that more people were cutting the line or something.

Um, then he looks at the two people behind me and he’s like, sorry, I guess because now there’s more people who would cut the line. But then he kept glaring at us and giving us dirty looks. And when it was very clear that he wasn’t going to get to talk to me. He turned around and found another woman to start talking to, which leads us to the conclusion that this had nothing to do with the wheelchair, and everything to do with the fact that he was trying to hit on me, which I’m not sure I believe but Kyle and Eli say that’s absolutely what happened.

Kyle Khachadurian
He was totally hitting on you.

Or he’s just the saltiest person. Like he can’t do his good deed because it also helps the other two people that were with you. He was like, No, no, my good deed is only supposed to be for her. Not for the two of you.

Emily Ladau
I mean, the shade though. I don’t think there’s anything that is um

I can’t how… what an alternative for “something blocking”?

Kyle Khachadurian
It’s another kind of thing I can’t say.

Emily Ladau
Um, let’s just say…

Kyle Khachadurian
I’ll just put a rooster noise here. She was being, or we were [rooster noise] blocking her.

Emily Ladau
Yeah. And

Kyle Khachadurian
Or him rather.

Emily Ladau
Yeah, it had nothing to do with me. I was living in my ignorance waiting for my guacamole, which wasn’t even very good. Which is depressing, because that was a long line and an awkward situation.

Kyle Khachadurian
And it was hot.

Factors that do not mix well.

Emily Ladau
Anyway, so sometimes you think it’s a wheelchair perk. Sometimes you think someone’s taking pity on you. And sometimes they’re just trying to hit on you. And it’s real weird. I highly recommend having two men dote on you at once to stop that situation or real fast.

Kyle Khachadurian
And the best part is like I didn’t even know it was happening. I was just coming over with my ice cream because I was so hot and sweaty. And I was like here Emily have some because it’s hot. You’re hot and sweaty. So here, and this was all going on. And she like informed me when it was way too late. Like the spoon was already in her mouth. And she’s desperately trying to tell me like there’s a guy hey,

that’s me doing Emily with a spoon in her mouth. But it was super awkward.

Emily Ladau
Anyway, can everyone else please tell me if you think he was hitting on me or this was just like a taking pity on the wheelchair girl situation.

Kyle Khachadurian
Okay, my argument is, why would he be salty? If he was just taking pity on you? Was he really upset that you had friends?

Emily Ladau
I mean, maybe I don’t know, like my mom. Because of course, I told my mother that was like, well, you lied to him. You told him you were by yourself. And I was like, I was by myself. When I told him I was by myself.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah. And you stayed that way for a while. Like we were gone for a fair amount of time.

Emily Ladau
Yeah, like I was alone. I did not realize that he meant like, did you come here by yourself?

Kyle Khachadurian
Screw that guy

Emily Ladau
Do you come here often to the guacamole truck?

Kyle Khachadurian
Him and his silly hair.

Emily Ladau
My God.

Anyway, so yeah, I just really want other people’s opinions on the situation. And I wish that I had like a GoPro in my shirt or something recording all this so that people could tell–like told me what was going on.

Kyle Khachadurian
We should equip you with one every time we go out somewhere.

Emily Ladau
I think that’s what we’re going to have to do.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, you can put it out as like extra Patreon content. The Emily cam.

Emily Ladau
Okay, so anyway, that wraps that up wheelchair perk or getting hit on? Please sound off in the comments section.

Kyle Khachadurian
And in other news…

Emily Ladau
Media representation of disability is still subpar.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, it is what I would call on a less generous day, hot trash.

Emily Ladau
So this morning, I had to wake up very early. And the first thing I do before I get out of bed is check my phone, which is horrible. I should probably stop that.

Why are you raising your hand?

Kyle Khachadurian
Because the first thing you do after you wake up is you blow your nose.

Emily Ladau
Okay, fair.

The first thing I do after I wake up is blow my nose. The second thing I do after I wake up is check my phone. And every morning I make the mistake of going on Twitter, and finding something to get angry about because there’s always something going on with ableism and exclusion and lack of representation. And this morning did not disappoint. So at like 6:30 in the morning, when I really should have been getting ready to leave my house for the day, I was instead in a pile on my bed angrily tweeting at the Hollywood Reporter because they released an article highlighting 50 agents of change empowering diverse voices in Hollywood. And not a single one of them, who’s on that list, has a disability. And

look, okay, I get it. There’s a lot of diversity issues in Hollywood.

But disability if diversity is an international thing. And it’s

very clearly not only eliminating an entire part of the population, but completely ignoring the fact that disability can be part of an identity while also being another minority. And I just feel like how many more times in Hollywood gonna pat themselves on the back for being so inclusive and then completely exclude disability.

Kyle Khachadurian
I agree. I mean, I always found like Hollywood inclusive it to be a bit of a sham. Anyway, not to sound too cynical, right? But it’s a whole bunch of like multi millionaire like, upper class 1% American making movies for us plebeians, and they’re like, Oh, we shouldn’t you know, I don’t know, I’m not saying it’s not authentic, because obviously authentic representation anywhere is good to a point kind of, more on that later. It always struck me as sort of like, pandering ish. But I guess maybe that also is like, how it’s done.

Emily Ladau
I kind of feel like it’s either pandering, or it’s ignored completely. And people still have not seem to grasp on to that happy medium, where it’s just like, yes, we know, this is what the audience wants. And we know this is what people want. But also, this is actually genuine. And so I called out

one of the editors from The Hollywood Reporter, and I was like, this is the best you could do, because she tweeted that she vetted the list along with her colleagues for months. And I was like, and no one in that time thought to include disability. So she tweeted me back and she was like, Oh, well, here’s another article talking about diversity in casting. So it has one measly mention of disability. And it’s talking about someone non disabled, patting themselves on the back for hiring an actress who actually has a disability.

Kyle Khachadurian
Hoo-rah!

Emily Ladau
And I was just like, that’s a bad answer. When someone tells you to do better you don’t say look, but we sort of kind of maybe but not really sort of a little bit did

Kyle Khachadurian
come on, I don’t know. representations Funny, isn’t it?

Emily Ladau
Explain funny to me

Kyle Khachadurian
Well, it’s not haha funny. But on the one hand, you have Garrett from Superstore, played by an able bodied man, right? He’s a wheelchair user in the show. And it doesn’t affect his character in any way. It’s not even part of his personality. And that is something that Hollywood and media in general loves to do. When a character is a member of some kind of marginalized group, like a gay character. They always make him like, a little bit flamboyant. So you know he’s the gay one. They always do that. And they don’t do that with Garrett. And that’s one of my favorite things about him now, is it weird and sort of kind of wrong that he’s played by an able bodied guy? Well, yeah, of course. But it is so refreshing not to have entire plots and subplots and storylines, just revolving around the fact that he sits down to get around, unlike some other authentic, authentic…

Emily Ladau
We’re looking at you, Speechless!

Kyle Khachadurian
Well Speechless. Okay, so Speechless? Yeah, it’s the prime example of that. But the reason I will give Speechless a kind of a little bit of a pass up in a in a in the middle most vague way, is because Speechless doesn’t ever pretend to be anything else. Right?

Emily Ladau
Fair

Kyle Khachadurian
Speechless is about this kid in this wheelchair in this life in this family? And that’s that, is it over the top? and ridiculous. Yes, but it does what it says on the tin. And on the opposite end of that you have things like Special, which, Oh, God, you know, I wanted to like it. I really did. And I really

liked the first episode, and then it just got worse from there.

Emily Ladau
Do we need a spoiler alert?

Kyle Khachadurian
Yes, spoiler alert for Special. This is your spoiler warning, the whole thing is two hours on Netflix, I recommend that you watch it if only to join the conversation. It’s worth your time, if you have any sort of interest in disability representation, or media representation in general, even if you’re not disabled.

Emily Ladau
Okay, so I watched it, but it’s already been a little while since I watched it. And it’s not sticking with me that well, which should honestly say something about it. But the long and short of it is that Kyle watched it and had a very different reaction than I did, initially. But upon hearing critiques of it, and kind of sitting with my own thoughts about it. I’m starting to understand why certain people are not a fan. But I’m kind of I’m curious why. Well, I guess I just gave away your point of view. Sorry.

Kyle Khachadurian
No, it’s fine. So So I will start with positives. I like that. Ryan O’Connell has CP. Absolutely. But I will say just as a forefront before I start that this show has taught me that authentic representation means absolutely nothing if there’s zero substance behind it. And Special is exactly that. So there are a few positives though. The fact that has CP is nice. The sex scenes graphic as they were, very nice. The fact that he’s also gay, I suppose is nice, although I’m not gay. So I can’t really speak to that. But sure, more representation. And I rather enjoyed the very unhealthy relationship that he had with his mother. A lot of people were harping on the show for that being unrealistic. And I suppose to a lot of people, myself included, it is unrealistic. But I can tell you, I know a lot of people would CP with parents just like that who have that dynamic. And is that unhealthy? Yes. But I I loved the fact that it was there. I love the fact that it was in the forefront. And that was all good. Here’s what I didn’t like.

Everything–

Emily Ladau
Well wait can I? Oh, yeah. Sorry. You say what you didn’t like? What I did, like, and then

Kyle Khachadurian
This is your show too Sorry.

Emily Ladau
No, no, I don’t need to stop you because I need to get a word in edgewise. But just because like, I think it would be good if we were both focusing on the positives. So for me, I really liked his friendship with the woman whose name I’m already forgetting

Kyle Khachadurian
Kim.

I love Kim, Kim was the best part of the show.

Emily Ladau
I think that his friendship with Kim showed a dynamic that I have often seen between me and my friends that I’m reluctant to divulge things initially, but then recognizing that it’s for the best to be completely open and honest. And granted, I don’t have that with my close friends now. But it certainly is something where I start out more guarded. So you know, I thought that was a very realistic friendship. And then also his boss at Eggwoke.

Kyle Khachadurian
That’s a good name,

Emily Ladau
Which is a ridiculous name for a company!

Kyle Khachadurian
That’s a great name. Yeah.

Emily Ladau
But anyway, there’s this moment. And tell me if you feel differently, where it’s his boss, who calls him out for internalized ableism, him grapple with that, because he goes on a date with a deaf guy and find it so utterly disappointing.

Kyle Khachadurian
Oh, yeah,

that was like the best scene in the whole thing. I don’t know why I didn’t mention that, that that that happens.

Emily Ladau
Because the problem is that there are a bunch of diamonds in the rough among

Kyle Khachadurian
A whole lot of rough. Yeah.

Emily Ladau
So yeah, so I think that there were really, really good plot points and commentaries on disability, and ableism, and how people perceive the disability experience. You know, and I suppose I found it amusing how he pretends to have been pretends that he became this way, quote, unquote, because he was hit by a car and runs with it. And I think I find that sort of an interesting exploration of denial of disability as part of your identity. So I know we’re a little bit all over the place. But

we would be remiss if we didn’t point out that there were positives.

Kyle Khachadurian
I liked and I didn’t like that. Right. So on the one hand, hiding your own disability from you is something that a friend of mine wrote a piece on this, but I echo the sentiments that I don’t know how I would have took that if this came out when I was 15. Right. I might have done that. If that was the first kind of “me” that I saw, I might have internalized that it was that you were supposed to hide who you are. And I don’t know. And that’s not okay. Right.

Emily Ladau
But he resolved it at the end.

Kyle Khachadurian
Well, yeah, that was my “but”, and also, it was an interesting sort of, sort of take on how society is so much more accepting of an able bodied person who becomes temporarily disabled or even sometimes permanently disabled by something happening to them later in life, rather than being born this way. So that’s an interesting dynamic that the show touched on. And unfortunately, I wish I did more I really do that was interesting to me. And it, it was central to the show, and it didn’t do much with it.

Emily Ladau
I think the problem is that the show is only 15 minutes per episode, you can’t really get that deep into some of the more important things.

Kyle Khachadurian
Right. That was another thing. So by the so the character is a total for d*** brains, and by the time he has any kind of character, but he was designed that way. That’s um, that’s not my personal opinion, although it also is, but he was written that way. And by the time he has any kind of character development at all, the show ends. So it’s kind of like, I don’t know, it’s just like

Emily Ladau
On a rather depressing note, I might add,

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah, very much.

Emily Ladau
I mean, I’m glad that he has a reckoning with his mother.

Kyle Khachadurian
But there were so many little jokes and jabs and stuff that, that were hate this word problematic that you could sort of see what he was doing. But they just didn’t land, I’m not going to list them all. But there were just so many little things that landed on the wrong side of funny, but I will say, I like that it’s there. But I will say this something, again, that a friend of mine said that when you are the first of your kind, you have this kind of responsibility to

represent yourself well, in a way that goes against stereotypes. And of course, while you shouldn’t have to do that, we don’t live in that world where you don’t have to do that. But yeah, that’s my take on, on Special. Also, he calls himself r******* in his book. So perhaps all of my problems with this show is just that it’s horribly written, because he’s the sole writer, and he just doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Emily Ladau
Yeah, I mean,

everybody was all hyped up about the show, because it was like, oh, we’re finally going to see ourselves on screen. And in some ways, I did. In some ways, I did see myself on screen

Kyle Khachadurian
Really?

I did not see myself on screen at all. And it’s so funny that you say that,

Emily Ladau
I guess, in some of the internal struggle and grappling. But, you know, on the whole, how much am I really gonna relate to a gay guy was CP, when I’m a straight woman with Larsen Syndrome, you know, like, but something deeper than that was missing for me. I still don’t really feel like I saw myself in any sort of meaningful way, and definitely not in

a way that I think is going to lead to continued meaningful change in the sphere of disability representation. I just am worried that Special is something that was kind of not actually that special, and maybe like, will fall little flat. And I just, I wanted more, I needed more. And I feel weird saying that because like, Yeah, I know, I’m not the show writer, you know, but I just feel

like something is missing. Something is hollow.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah,

cohesion that’s missing like the, you know, the episode where he hires a man to like, put together a chair because he can’t face his mother and tell her that he can’t do something, only then to have her literally shovel his s*** out of a toilet. Like I just don’t understand, like, those two things should not happen back to back or frankly, at all.

Emily Ladau
Really? Because I saw that as reminding him that he can’t quite be so holier than thou and high and mighty in the way that he talks to her

Kyle Khachadurian
Okay. I’ll give you that. But then how come he doesn’t like, he doesn’t learn anything from that experience until like the very last two minutes of the very last episode. I don’t know. I guess the more I talk, the more I realized that a lot of my problems are just with with how the show is put together?

Emily Ladau
Well, I think yeah, I mean, it’s missing a lot of the key lessons that you would want to see come out of the show,

Kyle Khachadurian
especially in a sitcom. Like that’s the whole… I don’t know

Emily Ladau
But what can you do with 2 hours?

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah no, that’s true That’s true.

That’s true. I will say the, you know, like Emily said, She’s a straight woman with Larsen Syndrome, not a gay man with CP I’m a straight man with CP. And I can tell you that the one scene or the two scenes I loved was when he tried and failed to get up from the bench. Because he just couldn’t find his balance. That was nice. And I loved the the kiss scene between him and the guy in the pool house, where he realizes that he’s like an inexperienced virgin and doesn’t know what he’s doing. And so he just stops.

Emily Ladau
Oh, I liked the scene where he actually has sex for the first time with the sex worker.

Kyle Khachadurian
The sex scenes were great. I don’t like that he made him, that Ryan O’Connell made Ryan with no last name in the show a virgin loser at 28 years old, though. I mean, I get it, because there are a lot of people with CP or virgin losers at 28 years old, I suppose. But no one I know. And not me.

Emily Ladau
Yeah, it plays directly into the stereotype.

Kyle Khachadurian
Right.

Emily Ladau
And it didn’t really do very much to fix the stereotype either. And well, I mean, there is that kiss with that guy, but they don’t even look explain that, because he’s supposed to be in a relationship with someone else. So the whole thing is just too messy to be good.

Kyle Khachadurian
Now.

You know, I used to be one of those people that will sort of that were like, you know, representation, like it doesn’t fix anything. But it certainly adds a layer of depth that you would not get with an inauthentic representation of a given character, which is still true. However, what Special taught me like I said earlier, is that that really is only skin deep. And that if you don’t have the personal experience to follow through with it, and authentic represented to people should because that’s what the authenticity is supposed to be for. It. Just I mean, really, like the guy is not an actor, you could have gotten a better results with a guy pretending to have CP! I swear, it was just so disjointed. And on the other hand, I saw The Upside this weekend. Remember, we were all mad at that?

Emily Ladau
I’m still mad at it, but I haven’t seen it.

Kyle Khachadurian
No, no, yeah, there’s plenty to be met for the authentic representation. And Bryan Cranston, who I love. He’s a great actor, but his response of saying, hey, look, man, I just did I just got picked for a role. I don’t know what to tell you. Like I didn’t think I mean, if he was going to do it anyway, I wouldn’t have responded like that. Personally.

Emily Ladau
Yeah.

Kyle Khachadurian
But I will say, often authentic representation aside because you’re not going to find it in that movie. It was there were some moments of that movie that did turn a lot of negative disability stereotypes on its head, like a lot of the jokes didn’t… They weren’t because Philip who’s the quadriplegic in the movie, they weren’t because he was disabled. A lot of the jokes stemmed from Dell play by Kevin Hart, his never being a PCA before. A lot of the joke stemmed from the fact that Philip was a multi millionaire. By the way, there was a disability disability disabled guy with who was a multimillionaire that was also very cool. And Dell as a working class, or even poor person who has never ever seen that amount of money in his life. There was a lot of that where it’s like, these are where our classes collide. and here we can find common ground. And that’s all welling

Emily Ladau
And racial dynamics.

Kyle Khachadurian
That’s right. Because, yeah, Kevin Hart is black. And I think the PCA also was is real life. They, you know, oh, yeah. That too. And that’s actually

yeah. And that actually plays a significant part in the story as well. And it’s nice. The ending was a little feelgoody.

But not,

Emily Ladau
But he doesn’t want to kill himself like Me Before You right?

Kyle Khachadurian
Actually. So that,

okay, spoilers kind of, I’m going to spoil one scene. So, one day, they’re on his balcony, and there’s one of them smoking doesn’t matter which one of those smoking? And Kevin Hart like, asks him like, hey, look, not to be rude or nothing? But do you ever think of offing yourself? Because obviously, Dell has no idea what it’s like to be disabled? And I don’t like that question. But as somebody I can, I can totally see why someone would arrive there, given the way that society thinks of us, right? And he says, No, you know, even though the pain is, you know, insurmountable, nothing compares to losing my wife. And that’s the kind of pain that makes me want to think of doing that. And he was like, Look, you know, because his wife dies, and she was already dead. So that’s not a spoiler. But he was saying like this, yes, having this disability like sucks. But losing someone you love is way worse. And so No, he doesn’t want to kill himself. The moments in The Upside were smaller, but more poignant than anything special did, which is ridiculous. It should not be that way. But that’s how I felt. But having said that, obviously, if the guy was really disabled, if Bryan Cranston was played by Bryan Cranston was played if the Philip character was played by the same guy, that would be better. But I would honestly say that The Upside is worth your two hours more than Special is. I really would.

Emily Ladau
So here’s what it all comes down to. for me. I have a very, very hard time reconciling in my head, my appreciation of portions portrayals of disability when I know that they’re inauthentic, but they’re so on the nose. You know, Garrett, from Superstore, being the prime example of that. always makes me laugh, always. But then I still get my knickers in a knot over the fact that he doesn’t actually have a disability. And there’s a movie. It’s an older movie,

Kyle Khachadurian
Margarita with a Straw?

Emily Ladau
Oh, I love that one. But no, that wasn’t what I was.

A Music Within? It’s called? It has Charlie Sheen. I think is that who it is

Kyle Khachadurian
Something

like that.

Emily Ladau
Michael Sheen, Michael. You know, Charlie Sheen. Charlie Sheen’s the bonker’s one, I think Yeah, but it’s definitely Michael Sheen. But anyway, so he plays a man named Richard Pimentel. And he was disabled during the war in Vietnam. And so there’s this whole story about all of the situations that he goes through to try to gain access. I’m not even retelling this right. Okay. Hold on. It’s been so long. Okay. So Richard loses his hearing, and then befriends a guy who has cerebral palsy.

Kyle Khachadurian
Oh

Emily Ladau
There you go. Okay, that’s it. I don’t want to mess this up. And so having that group of friends, helps Richard to become an advocate for the disability community. And I think that it’s a really great movie. But of course, again, lack of authenticity here. And so,

I struggle, because I think it’s a really good movie that tells a really important story. I don’t like the lack of authenticity. What am I supposed to do? How do I reconcile that in my head? How can I

appreciate it for what it is and call out the problems?

Kyle Khachadurian
just like that? “This was good, but…” you know, critical lenses never heard anybody, but it shouldn’t preclude you for your, from your enjoyment. I forgot the best part. Because I know none of you are actually going to watch The Upside on principle, which is fine. So I’ll just spoil it for you. So Dell, Kevin Hart, who by the way, I also know is cancelled because of a whole other laundry list of problematic reasons, by the way, just so you know, that I’m, that we’re aware of the problems with him. He so Philip, his wheelchair dies, in like the middle of Manhattan, which is super relatable. And

Emily Ladau
Amen to that.

Kyle Khachadurian
in working with Philip Dell learns how to fix wheelchairs. And after his tenure with Philip is over, Dell uses his earnings from his job with Philip to open up a wheelchair repair shop. So like, you know, amen.

Emily Ladau
Okay, I can get into that.

Yeah, like, it’s yeah, exactly. It’s just one of those things.

Kyle Khachadurian
But just seeing those two things so closely together, in time: Special, and The Upside, just really made me realize that like, authentic representation is wonderful. It really is. And we should do more of it. But it really only goes so far. And it does open up a whole, like different can of worms, like Emily said, like, it’s problematic, but it’s good. You know, or this is not problematic. And it’s bad. What do you do?

Emily Ladau
Or can something be both problematic and good?

Kyle Khachadurian
I think so. But it doesn’t mean it’s immune from criticism, right? Like, just because it’s good, doesn’t mean that you’re not allowed to criticize and a lot of people feel that way about, like their favorite movie. And it’s like, No, no, nothing’s… relax. Just the movie.

Emily Ladau
I think

more to the point is that a lot of people feel like that about any sort of disability representation. You know, if it’s authentic, it’s almost like we kind of walk on eggshells around it, because, you know, you don’t want to do anything to foil the progress that’s being made. I mean, not that it’s 100% related. But I feel like I ran into this issue back during the 2016 elections, where I called out Hillary Clinton. Yeah, yeah. So she made a whole speech that was centered on disability, but I still felt like she could have done better. And it was sort of this very inspirational tone that lacked any real policy or substance. And I called her out on it on NPR, of course, I guess, you know, I was asking for the feedback. But I got feedback that was like, how dare you speak down about Hillary Clinton, you’re going to help Donald Trump get elected.

Kyle Khachadurian
That was you?!

You’re the reason we’re in this mess, Emily?!

Emily Ladau
Oh, definitely. me. Sorry, everyone. But like, I just don’t believe that I should have to exist in a world where I can’t recognize that my fav is problematic.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah. Couldn’t have said it better.

But it is hard. Because you know, if you are an outsider, right, or someone who doesn’t know about these things, and you take a cursory glance at Disability Twitter, one of the things that you will see all too often, and for all the right reasons, is that there is a severe lack of representation and we need more of it. And so I can totally see where someone like Ryan O’Connell was coming from, right. He’s like, Oh, I am representation. And he made a show. And that’s great.

Emily Ladau
And kudos to him, because most people don’t get that far.

Kyle Khachadurian
Oh, yeah, I,

yeah, I will give him that much.

But when the show falls, so flat, like I genuinely, genuinely, really, really felt in my heart of hearts, that I have seen better, inauthentic representation. And that is not something that is normal to feel after you see something like that. It’s just not what you’re supposed to feel. And I don’t even want to say I was disappointed. I was just so… whelmed. I was neither over nor underwhelmed. It was like, Okay, that’s it. Like, there it is. It’s a gay dude with CP and his weird relationship with his mom. And that’s what it was supposed to be! But when you’re broadcasting that to millions and millions of homes across the country, and when it’s a whole bunch of people’s first exposure to CP? Do I like that you have to carry a little bit of extra responsibility right with you? Absolutely not. But do you? Yeah. I mean, I was I was talking to this guy. His name is D’Arcee Neal, who you should all go follow on Twitter, by the way. I’ve talked about him three times now. So I should probably name drop him at this point. He is a fantastic doctoral student in disability studies. And yeah, it’s cool guy. And we were talking and I said to him, I’m like, you know, the first black family I saw on TV, right was The Cosby Show. Now I know, Bill Cosby, I know. But when he was doing The Cosby Show he made, he made it a point not to showcase any negative stereotypes about African American people whatsoever, not one, and America fell in love with him and his show. 20 years later, cartoon in Japanese anime style called The Boondocks comes out, right? And it’s it. It cashes in on those stereotypes and it makes fun of itself. It turns those stereotypes on its head by making plot points that revolve around making those stereotypes front and center and absurd. And we have that 20 year sort of conditioning with shows like The Cosby Show and The Fresh Prince of Bel Air to know. Unless you’re, you know, racist, that like, Oh, this show is parodying itself. But Special is akin to the boondocks. And if, if that was what we saw, first, when we should have been seeing something like The Cosby Show, there is no Cosby Show for disability. That’s what this show is doing.

Emily Ladau
Okay, counterpoint here, though, is that I don’t think that we’re in a generation anymore, where The Cosby Show of disability would be acceptable or well received, because people would call it too cliche, and they wouldn’t watch it, it would get canceled after one season.

Kyle Khachadurian
No, we would say that the people who don’t know a damn thing about disability, I think would love it. And I think we would be right in saying that. But we’re not who it’s for!

Emily Ladau
So is that what Speechless is trying to be, then?

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah. And I think Speechless is way

better. I mean, I can go on and on about this, the problems I have with Speechless, but I don’t say anything about it, because I think it fulfills a niche. And I think it deserves to exist, I don’t think Special deserves to exist.

Emily Ladau
No, see, I think that Special deserves to exist. But I think that its niche within a niche. And that becomes a problem, because I’m not sure that America was ready for it yet. And maybe we’re not giving people enough credit. But quite frankly, I just think that the way that the show was hyped up as being so incredibly revolutionary for disability, you need to live up to that hype, because we’re a pretty gosh, darn big community. You know, we love our statistics, yeah, it is 1 in 4 now. So anyway, all that said, I think that we should do our final takeaways.

Kyle Khachadurian
My final takeaway is that,

if nothing else, shows like Special are a great example of the exceptions of things that would say we as a community sort of took as a rule, as great as authentic representation is, it really isn’t everything. And that’s important to recognize when you’re sort of going into a new piece of media. Having said that authentic representation, it’s a great piece. But it’s not the whole puzzle, and it should not be treated like that.

Emily Ladau
I think that we need to give Special a chance. But I also think that we’ve already given it a chance. And I don’t mean, us, I mean, the royal “we”. And it just seems like it didn’t quite hit the mark, we were hoping for it to hit. So my final takeaway is more of a final call to action, which is that we need to be the representation that we want to see. And if Ryan O’Connell can do it, I think someone else can do it. And I think they can do it better.

Kyle Khachadurian
Yeah. And to that point, though, I mean, not to drag this on, but I wouldn’t fault him for being that I just think he did it wrong. I mean, you know…

Emily Ladau
And that’s the way we see it.

Kyle Khachadurian
This has been another episode of The Accessible Stall.

I am Kyle, I think she’s Emily, I believe.

Emily Ladau
That’s me!

Kyle Khachadurian
And thanks for listening. If you’d like to support the show, give us a like on Facebook or follow on Twitter. Hey, donate $1 on patreon. At patreon.com/theaccessiblestall. even just $1 a month ensures that current and future episodes of The Accessible Stalll remain accessible.

Emily Ladau
Thanks so much for

listening.

Kyle Khachadurian
And might we say, you look great today.